It's been a long time since I've posted on here -- Ken, Kevin, Parks and everyone else have done a great job -- but I wanted to take some time out to make a point I'm surprised not to have seen on this website recently.
Many fans, including our own Ken, continue displaying patience with this franchise that would make Orioles' fans blush. I have seen a ton of arguments on this site for drafting an OL in the upcoming draft, or trading down to garner extra picks and building from there.
I possess a completely different opinion, and I believe there is ample logic to back me up.
I believe the Redskins need to take an elite QB in this draft -- by any reasonable means necessary.
Looking at this NFL season, it is clear that there is no more important characteristic of a football team than the caliber of its quarterback.
The Super Bowl will be a duel between two of the four best QB's this year: Tom Brady and Eli Manning. Aaron Rodgers and Drew Brees single-handedly led their teams to unbelievable seasons despite weak defenses. Matthew Stafford may have been outside the top 5 NFL QB's this year, yet still hit 5,000 yards -- and the Lions made the playoffs. Matt Ryan caught a lot of flack this year -- but still passed for 29 TD's and 4200 yards, leading the Falcons back to the playoffs.
The teams who made the playoffs this season -- from the Giants to the Falcons to the Patriots to the Bengals -- got there at least in part because of strong play at the quarterback position. Even the 49ers, Ravens, and Broncos received strong play from usually-maligned quarterbacks.
Not because of amazing offensive lines. Not because of amazing defenses (right, New England/NO/GB?). Because of outstanding quarterbacks.
So my proposition is this: If your scouts and coaches believe someone can be the next Eli/Peyton/Rodgers -- and you DON'T do what it takes to get them? You are going backwards.
I believe the elite quarterback the Redskins will have a chance at is going to be Robert Griffin, the Heisman winner out of Baylor. And I believe he's completely worth several future draft picks, given his talent and the state of our franchise.
(Yes, I did just say we should get a QB by any means necessary. The No. 1 pick may not even be for sale, and if it is, the price would have to be one of the most lopsided and indefensible trades in NFL history. As much as we would all like to see Luck in consideration as well, the package required to get Luck at No. 1 would be asinine compared to what would be required to move up to No. 2. So I'm discounting that option. Bear with me.)
I am arguing the Redskins do whatever is necessary to get their QB of the future (and present) in this draft, and that doing anything else should be viewed as an abject, irresponsible failure -- one that could ultimately cost Mike Shanahan and Bruce Allen their jobs.
And that man is going to be Robert Griffin III.
Let me briefly introduce you to Robert Griffin III. My guess is everyone here has seen the kid play a few times. But let me throw some facts at you that you may not know.
First of all, his stats are absolutely ridiculous. He completed 72% of his passes, 37 of them for TD's, led the nation in Yards/Attempt, was 2nd nationally in QB rating (ahead of Luck) and, obviously, won the Heisman.
Oh yeah, he also had 700 rushing yards last year and might be the fastest quarterback in NFL history when he hits the field. (He was an All-American sprinter at Baylor.)
Also, by all accounts, RG3 is a leader in the class of Newton and Tebow, which is extremely important to our franchise. There is a tremendous dearth of leadership on the Redskins. Who, at present, is a leader on the Redskins offense?
Furthermore, Griffin is an all-around great guy and incredibly marketable, which makes him appeal from a business standpoint to a declining mega-franchise (losing value and fans every day) with no superstar.
If Andrew Luck was not in this draft, I think it would be completely fair to assume that Griffin would be the No. 1 pick. But the Redskins are lucky. Griffin will be there at No. 2.
The Redskins will not need to trade their entire draft a la Mike Ditka in order to attain Griffin. According to the Trade Value Chart (which is not exactly in stone but seems to be a decent approximation of how picks are valued), the difference between the 2nd pick (2600) and the 6th pick (1600) should be accounted for by this year's first rounder, probably next year's first rounder, and a second or third in addition. That seems like a lot, but I will discuss why it's not as bad as it seems.
Which brings me to the crux of my post. There are several arguments that would seem to support the opposite of my position -- let me try and dispel them as quickly as possible and then make my point.
Myth: The Redskins have to hold on to all their high draft picks at this point, and trading them is foolish and short-sighted.
Facts: You know, if the Redskins don't take a top-tier quarterback in this draft, I would agree fully with this statement. Because the team wouldn't be going anywhere, and that would mean that next year, the Redskins would want another shot at a top tier quarterback like Matt Barkley. Thus, a high 2013 first round pick would be indispensable for a losing team without a quarterback.
But, if the Redskins take RGIII at the top of this draft, we don't necessarily need a top pick in the next draft. Our biggest need will be assuaged, in addition to several other key needs later in this draft (namely OL depth, DB depth, LB depth, all of which can be accrued in later rounds) and free agency (marquee WR, perhaps DB, OL).
We also need to understand this: The Redskins -- nor any other team, for that matter -- won't be a perfect team at any point no matter how many draft picks they have. Drafting for depth is a luxury good teams can afford. We need to draft STUDS at this point because we simply have none of the offense anymore.
(There will always be gaping, seemingly impossible-to-overcome holes on every roster, as there are on the best two teams in the league. Is the Patriots secondary really a Super Bowl secondary? (Julian Edelman????) Are the Giants TE's, CB's or LB's Super Bowl units? The roster will always be flawed.)
Still unwilling to say goodbye to our draft picks? Okay. Say the Redskins stay at No. 6 -- or trade down, even. A lot of people on here seem to advocate for these options. But let me ask you -- If the Redskins take a right tackle, Justin Blackmon, or some other guy of your choosing... do you really think Rex Grossman will turn into Aaron Rodgers?
Even if they add Dwayne Bowe, Vincent Jackson, Justin Blackmon and DeSean Jackson, Rex Grossman is still Rex Grossman, and he would be warming the seat for some guy in the future. Same for the ancient Peyton Manning. Even Matt Flynn (He's 27 at season's beginning) isn't a super-long-term answer at QB, and we would just be putting off the inevitable.
At some point, the Redskins will need to draft a quarterback at the top of the draft. Robert Griffin is a 23 year old track star with a ridiculous arm. If Shanny/Allen believe Griffin can be the guy to lead us to the promised land, why not get him now and save ourselves the trouble and avoid another complete failure of a season? Our franchise and our fanbase just cannot afford to keep waiting around, not taking big steps to get better.
My point: By postponing the drafting of a marquee quarterback for another, we would be doing nothing but putting a band-aid on the wound that has bled this franchise to death since its Super Bowl runs.
Ok, Next Myth for dispelling: You don't need a quarterback in the first round. See Brady/Dalton/Brees as proof.
Fact: You don't need a job either, if you win the lottery. Which is nearly the equivalent of drafting a Pro Bowl QB out of the first round in this league at this point in time.
Let's run through the starting QB's in the league who made the playoffs.
Of the 12 QB's who made the playoffs, 75% were 1st-round picks. Of those in the Conference Championships, all but Brady were 1st rounders.
Ok, not satisfied? How about those that finished in the top 15 in yardage, but weren't included on that list?
Noticing a trend here? The best quarterbacks in the league are MOSTLY first rounders. Sure, you can find a Drew Brees, a Tony Romo, a Tom Brady later. A few teams have. But the vast majority of teams with capable quarterbacks chose them in the first round of a draft. And haven't had to address their decision since.
Most of the good starters in the league are first rounders. Why take a chance on the most important position in sports if you have an opportunity to get someone who can lead your squad for the next DECADE?
Another Myth: The offensive line is just as (or more) important to a team as the quarterback.
Fact: In Washington, we appreciate good OL's probably more than any other fanbase. (Just look at the title of this blog.) But this is just not true. How long ago was it when the Packers line was considered the worst in football? It was as recent as a season ago. But this year, Rodgers was able to pass for a nearly unprecedented 5,000 yards. Think that's all on the o-line? Remember last year -- or the last ten years -- when the Colts' offensive line was considered among the best in football in pass-pro? Suddenly, Peyton Manning goes down and their lauded offensive line suffered while Curtis Painter, Dan Orlovsky and Kerry Collins held the ball too long.
The better OL's in football are not stacked with first round picks. Look at the Giants starting line on their roster -- Snee (2nd), Diehl (5th), Baas (2nd), Boothe (6th), and McKenzie (3rd) are all non-premium picks. Meanwhile, Eli only took 28 sacks this season. (3 more than Grossman, who threw dozens fewer times.)
Meanwhile, Beck took 16 sacks in, what, four games? Think that is only on the offensive line?
Drew Brees took even fewer sacks than Eli. His left tackle, Jerome Bushrod, is out of Towson, for Chrissakes. Other starters: Evans (4th), Nicks (5th), Strief (7th). Not marquee names on draft day.
Pick any OL you want. It is not stacked with first-rounders. And what do the Dolphins (Jake Long), Browns (Joe Thomas), and, shoot, the Redskins (Trent Williams) have in common? They all took premium OL's in the top 4 picks the last few years, all are picking in the top 10 this year, and they all need a QB.
The answer for the Redskins is not to reach for an offensive lineman at No. 6. We have our top-tier left tackle (at the very least, we're stuck with someone who appears to be one) -- and that is the only premium spot on the line (assuming the QB is right-handed). Will Montgomery, Chris Chester and Kory Lichtensteiger appear to be adequate starters, especially given the success of our running game later in the year, and right tackle is a spot that can be drafted anywhere from round two to round five with some confidence of its effectiveness (Jon Jansen was a 2nd rounder, for instance).
Evidence shows continuity on the line and stellar quarterback play are much more important to the success of an offense than marquee OL draft picks.
Myth: The Redskins aren't just a good QB away from being a good team and should build around solid draft picks.
Fact: Teams are built around their quarterbacks. This year's Giants, Pats and Packers are proof of that fact as much as the Bears and Colts were.
Have a star quarterback, you make the playoffs. Take star quarterbacks out of the equation and teams regress toward the bottom.
Every single team I mentioned above has a glaring weakness but overcomes it with great play from their quarterback. The Giants had the worst running game in the league this season (32nd!!!), but their offense is damn near prolific at this point. The Packers and Pats had historically bad defenses, with no marquee RB's on offense, yet they were their conferences' No. 1 seeds.
Meantime, the Bears offense suddenly stopped functioning without Jay Cutler. The Colts went from an offensive juggernaut with a Pro Bowl WR, TE and C to the worst team in the league.
The Redskins running backs, tight ends and wideouts and entire offense would start to look a lot better if someone competent was flipping the ball around. (Not saying by any means we shouldn't grab another WR in this offseason, though.) So, it's time go get one.
Long winded-point: If the staff thinks Robert Griffin is capable of being a top-5 quarterback in the league, it must do whatever is necessary to get him.
This isn't Jason Taylor or Donovan McNabb or Albert Haynesworth. Committing a ton of money and a ton of picks for a guy who has a once-in-a-lifetime skill set at a position of extreme need and importance is not only rational, it is required.
So, what do you guys think? I'm sure an epic debate will ensue.
Thanks for reading.
8 recs | 597 comments
i agree..
jfield1111 - February 2, 2012
Finally common sense arrives to Hogs Haven.
HogtieJim - February 2, 2012
You Are Speaking to the Choir!!!!!
I have been saying this over and over and over again.
Highspeed30 - February 2, 2012
It is actually called preaching
Skins Fan '77 - February 2, 2012
can you email this to mike and kyle shanahan?
munson21502 - February 2, 2012
I have always been in the minority around here when it came to common sense
Obey - February 2, 2012
I really don’t think it will cost THAT much to trade up. STL surely can get a quality pick at #6 versus trading with a team in the low teens and still get their extra first next year plus some scraps.
Trading up is beneficial as we saw with Giants getting Eli Manning. Giants gave up their first and 3rd that year, and first and fifth next year in 2005. Extra picks out the door are worth it if the QB pans out. So, it all comes down to how much will it cost and what the market is. Surely at least 10 teams will inquire about the cost…man, STL surely is in the driving seat.
I do disagree with “any cost necessary.” If the cost was trading away the entire 2012 draft would you do it?
Kevin Ewoldt - February 2, 2012
Good questions
“By any means” is a tricky qualifier. I don’t think we’d have to give up our entire draft, but I certainly would part with 2 first rounders and a 2nd. After that I could handle giving up another pick but it would kill me just a little.
The one team we’ll really have to worry about beating out is Cleveland. Cleveland picks higher than us and will want RG3 just as much. Thusly, we will probably end up overpaying for RGIII but I can stomach it. If we don’t I feel like it will be because the coaching staff doesn’t think he’s worth it, not because we won’t be willing to go the distance.
mmford10 - February 2, 2012
It’s going to cost more than an extra 2nd. Likely both 1sts this year and 1st and 2nd next year.
Kevin Ewoldt - February 2, 2012
Personally, I can still justify the move
Maybe playing a little Madden GM here, but wonder if franchising Landry then moving him would help our case.
mmford10 - February 2, 2012
Who's going to trade for someone who's hurt/going to be cut anyway?
I still pull trigger on trade. IF RG3 works out like say Eli Manning then the sting of picks will go away.
CptChaosSidekick - February 2, 2012
I said the same thing...
…but not Landry… Fred Davis!! The Rams REALLY need a Tight End!!
Knightwchmn - February 2, 2012
I couldn't bear...
…watching the Browns abuse a talented like him!! Mark my words right now – in stone – If the Browns get him, this will be a future article on this site…
“Thank Goodness the Redskins didn’t get RG3 – he was a total bust, injury prone, etc…”
Where in reality, the Browns will have abused him into oblivion… Sad really.
Knightwchmn - February 2, 2012
And with our line, we're going to do what, exactly?
tuckwell - February 2, 2012 via iPhone app
Did you happen to miss
that our line played well at the end of the season, and this was without some of our starters.
Tiller56 - February 2, 2012
Seriously?
Better, yes. Good, no. No depth either. At least 3/5 of that line should be backups.
tuckwell - February 2, 2012 via iPhone app
How can you say not good
every team we faced had no respect for the pass, or Grossman, and every team knwe we would run the football, to attempt to set up our play-action pass, yet each back we ran in those games, had 100 yard outings.
Rushing totals from week 12-17
12 – 110
13 – 100
14 – 170
15 – 123
16 – 141
17 – 130
We also averaged over 85 yards more per game in the last 6 weeks; and this was said to be the tougher part of our sched.
This line gave up just 10 sacks over this span of 6 games.
Tell me how this is not good. Especially considering we had 2 rookies in the starting line-up.
Tiller56 - February 2, 2012
i agree. our line played alot better in the last month and a half.
well our whole team did. but the defense slowed down a good bit.
munson21502 - February 2, 2012
i think i would.
ifs thats what it would take is our whole 2012 draft. then we have all our draft picks the next year. that way we can have a real rebuilding season in which we will see a much better improvent with our record. we were a few bad games from rex and 3 very bad beck games away from 8-8, we beat the giants with rex 2 times by by 27 points. i think we are a better team then what alot of people think. if we get a top notch qb our bad season will be 8-8. if we fill other holes first and best season is 8-8. so we might as well get the trade over with while the guys we got the last few years are still young. because the holes will never stop comming.
munson21502 - February 2, 2012
It will cost a lot b/c it's RGIII, not just any old 'trade up'
It will cost at least two firsts, probably two firsts and at least one second.
look at what ATL gave up last year, and that was for the 2nd best WR in the draft (not even a QB)
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
How many spots did ATL jump to get Julio?
I think it was more then we’d have to make but I get your point.
CptChaosSidekick - February 2, 2012
The whole at any cost necessary should apply to Luck as well...
The Colts haven’t selected him yet, so he’s still on the table. If we’re willing to trade up to 2, we should explore the option of trading up to 1. Everything is about RG3 on here, and while I’m not enamored with him like most folks are, if it cost an extra first round pick to move up, I would do that 10 times over to acquire Luck
ptowny - February 2, 2012
the myth of having to hold on to our high picks
I think there’s some logic here, if (and this is the qualifier) the regime thinks Griffin is the real deal then it would be different then trading our picks away for a non-QB or a past-his-prime QB….I think we as Redskins fan are weary of trading away picks, because of the history of mismanagement we’ve had in the Snyder era…but I see this as somewhat analogous to the lions when they were in a position to draft calvin johnson…matt millen had wiffed on like 3 first round WRs prior to that draft, and some people were thinking “oh well they won’t risk drafting another WR,” but the fact was Calvin Johnson was a no brainer, so they made the right call and drafted him…here, if we really think Griffin is a no brainer, then we do the same thing we’ve done in the past recently, trade picks to get him…that being said I don’t know if grffin is a no brainer, I’ll let the front office decide that
atark001 - February 2, 2012
This Post
Can we leave it up till draft day so we don’t have to discuss why we should’nt go after RG3
CptChaosSidekick - February 2, 2012
thanks buddy
Seems like we are a pretty divided group, though, or at least it seems the anti-Griffin folks are pretty vociferous about their thoughts. Someone needed to put it this alternative out there though, yeah?
mmford10 - February 2, 2012
I think its bc they're used to being burned as Skins fans
Everyone’s looking at the “what if he doesn’t work out” aspect, When’s the next time we’ll be close enough for a possible elite QB?!
If the rule of thumb is always take the great QB prospect even you have an ok one then why the hell dont we pay to get one when we havent had one since ’91?
CptChaosSidekick - February 2, 2012
If we trade back, we will have the luxury of trading up next year as well...
StephanHart - February 2, 2012
NE does it all the time
Ton of Picks! QUESTION: WTF have they done w/ them. More picks doesnt mean more success.
CptChaosSidekick - February 2, 2012
Oh I dunno, vince Wilfork, Jerod Mayo, Nate Soldier, Aaron Hernandez, Gronk, Patrick Chung, Logan Makins...
You’re right, what on earth have they done with all those draft picks?
StephanHart - February 2, 2012
Seriously...
Since the last time we won a Superbowl…we’ve been to the playoffs 3 times.
In that same period, the Patriots have been to the playoffs 12 times including 5 Superbowls
ptowny - February 2, 2012
Well yeah but they had real GM, coach, QB etc
CptChaosSidekick - February 2, 2012
NE is a rare case
Tough to say the success they’ve had can be repeated simply by following one philosophy.
And if Tom Brady wasn’t there, they wouldn’t have been able to pick other positions in Rd. 1 all those years….
mmford10 - February 2, 2012
We should strive to be so rare
StephanHart - February 2, 2012
All we have to do is find the best QB ever in the 6th round
Hire perhaps best head coach of all time
Never miss on a draft pick
Have an undefeated season
Win as many Super Bowls in 10 years as the Redskins have in 50
And then we’ll be just like the Patriots
mmford10 - February 2, 2012
And we can start by drafting like them
StephanHart - February 2, 2012
You forgot cheat
willster - February 2, 2012
All the ingredients
“they had real GM, coach, QB etc” ETC equals franchise owner are who ever is the decision maker in the organization.
Jefferson1935 - February 2, 2012
For me its all about
How much we need to sacrifice to get griffin. Guesstimates from analysts and talking heads to swap 1st rd picks with the rams have been as much as this years 2nd and 4th, plus next year’s 1st and 2nd , to as little as this year’s 2nd and next year’s 3rd. I just have problems bringing this kid in and then having to wait 2 years to get him some protection and weapons.
Redskin44 - February 2, 2012
but we have cap space skins 44
we can get a good linemen and a good wr in FA. that alone will make this offense alot better
munson21502 - February 2, 2012
?
Why must we wait two years to get him some protection? Are you assuming that only 1st round OL are protection?
Legacee - February 2, 2012
Another Draft...
Another can’t miss sure fire HOF Super Bowl winning franchise QB. Personally I would like to see them trade down and accumulate picks this year just like last year, maybe stock up a few extra picks for next year, and then go after this can’t miss QB next year. Another draft and FA like last year and we will have a well built team with some depth to place around this ’franchise" qb. If it costs us this years draft and next years draft, no way. No guarantees with this kid, and to mortgage the future on 1 guy seems risky and if he fails, 2 yrs from now we havea new GM, Coach, and we are rebuilding again. But if we have a stout team with some depth, we can afford a QB bust.
But thank god football people are making these decisions and not a bunch of internet nerds. If shanahan/allen think this guy is worth it and we are close enough to mortgage the future and they want to mortgage the future, Ill support this team and whoever is QB.
DocJ78 - February 2, 2012
Great article though.
DocJ78 - February 2, 2012
what extra picks you going to get for next year??
so I am guessing you are advocating not picking a QB in this years draft in the 1-3 rounds if you wanna wait til next year to get a Franchise QB??
And How are you going to get “extra picks” next year??? even if you do trade back the most you will get is a extra 2nd rd and 3rd round pick this year no picks next year. Unless a guy like Blackmon fell in your lap @6 but that isas likely to happen as RG3 or Luck falling to 6.
Highspeed30 - February 2, 2012
Soooooo....
What guarantees do we have with a QB next year? Is it actually Griffin that you feel may be a bust? Do you feel that the QB’s next year won’t have that risk? Do you feel that we will be in a good position to grab a Franchise QB next year – who won’t be a possible bust? What happens this school year if any of the “sure fire” future HOF QB’s go down to injury during the school year?
There is a good reason why we are cautioned against putting off to tomorrow what we can very well do today! Mainly, because tomorrow is not promised and holds no guarantees.
Legacee - February 2, 2012
why would you have to wait to get him some protection??
You can add a starting G or T in Free agency, and with Griffin’s skill set he would make yyour line look a lot better in pass protection, cause them DE’s cant just all out rush him cause if RG3 breaks contain it’s all she wrote. You have to rush a guy like that in control, cause if you dont it can be a big play, either he runs it or get outside the pocket and the play breaks down and it is a free for all either way advantage goes to RG3.
Highspeed30 - February 2, 2012
Once we have a Nucleus
we can go buy some weapons. Also protection is more about consistency we dont need top tier talent we need guys that wont get hurt and can work together. then the protection will come around. Also having the fastest QB in the league will make protection that much better.
Venthril - February 2, 2012
Basically
it will be nice to finally have someone in Burgundy and Gold that scares the living crap of someone when they have the ball.
Venthril - February 2, 2012
+1
And to his credit…RGIII will pull in more FA talent than Rex anyday!!!
Legacee - February 2, 2012
Ugh
Well, since I have an hour and 45 minutes before I have to be somewhere, let’s get started then.
I am not entirely sure how you can call Flacco’s Smith’s or Tebow’s performances “strong.” Flacco was taking criticism from members of his own team this season. His stats (57.6% completions, 3600 yards, 6.66 yards per attempt, 20 TDs, 21 turnovers, 80.9 QB rating) certainly don’t point to any sort of “strong performance”. Tebow’s stats are even worse and I believe he had one good game all season. Smith easily outplayed both of them and he only threw for 3100 yards.
Someone please explain to me how any of their performances this season can be considered “strong”. Sure, they each played a couple of good games for their respective team, but as the saying goes, even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in a while.
Really? Let’s take a look at the offensive line rankings for each playoff team.
Team – Pass Protection ranking – Run Blocking ranking.
Saints – 3 – 1
Bengals – 4 – 20
Giants – 6 – 28
Falcons – 7 – 27
Patriots – 8 – 2
Lions – 10 – 31
Ravens – 12 – 6
Steelers – 20 – 3
Texans – 22 – 4
Packers – 23 – 16
49ers – 25 – 21
Broncos – 29 – 11
Number of playoff teams top 10 in pass protection: 6
Number of playoff teams top 10 in run blocking: 5
Number of teams top 10 in both: 2
So as you can see, almost every team was well above average in at least one OL category, and you’ll also notice that that statistic also matches up with what that team is known for (Ravens and Texans for rushing, Saints and Giants for passing, etc)
I think it’s safe to say that for most teams, the offensive line played an important part in their success.
Certainly these teams are not the greatest in terms of yards allowed. But let’s take a look at the IMPORTANT defensive stats for each playoff team.
Team – Points Allowed Ranking – Total Turnovers Forced
Steelers – 1 – 15
49ers – 2 – 38
Ravens – 3 – 26
Texans – 4 – 27
Bengals – 9 – 22
Saints – 13 – 16
Patriots – 15 – 34
Falcons – 18 – 29
Packers – 19 – 38
Lions – 23 – 34
Broncos – 24 – 18
Giants – 25 – 31
In bold are the teams who ranked better defensively in terms of points allowed than the Redskins. You’ll notice that over half of the teams ranks above average, and 3 others rank barely below average. As for the last 3, the Broncos are in a very weak division, which is why they made the playoffs in the first place, while the Lions played against some of the most explosive offenses in football this season. I cannot be bothered to sit down and add the INTS + fumbles recovered for all 32 teams and rank them right now but as you can see several teams forced well north of 25 turnovers.
Yeah because the guys who took Ryan Leaf, Heath Shuler, Jamarcus Russel et. al. were totally moving forward with their franchise.
There is no guarantee he will be elite, nor are the Redskins currently in a position to give up the number of high draft picks it will take to get him.
The most abject, irresponsible thing Mike Shanahan could do would be to trade up to draft a QB without giving that QB an offensive line or any of the other tools necessary to succeed.
I don’t think I have to go into all the QBs who were college superstars but couldn’t make it in the NFL.
Have you considered that it’s because there is such a huge deficit of talent at the QB position? Consider what would have happened if he had stayed this year. Next year he might have been competing with Bray, Barkley, Wilson, Murray, and Jones. Barkley was considered on equal footing with him and Bray is considered even better than Barkley so it’s very possible that Griffin would be the 3rd or 4th QB off the board if he were competing with that particular crop of Quarterbacks. Not to mention, if as your premise states Andrew Luck were to stay, then Griffin could possibly be the 5th QB off the board in that draft.
So the question is whether or not Griffin is THAT good or whether there is simply a lack of competition at the QB this year. I am inclined to believe the latter. Much like Blackmon would likely have been the 3rd or 4th WR taken last year (he’s good, but he’s no Megatron or AJ Green) he has catapulted to top 5 consideration because there are no other sure #1 WRs in this draft, Griffin would likely not be the #2 overall pick if there were any sort of real competition at the QB position.
That chart is grossly outdated.
Last year every single trade up went for more than the trade value chart said it should. Precedent has been set. Not to mention we will likely be competing to trade up for Griffin’s services. Your proposed value is highly optimistic, and not very realistic at all.
Unless I am mistaken, you based this entire point on your proposed cost for the move up. The entire situation has changed. But I must point out one more thing from your argument that I disagree with.
An offensive line and/or a top WR can do a lot of things. A top 5 OL would eliminate about 80% of Rex Grossman’s fumbles (because you have to get to him to make him fumble, obviously) and how many times did we see an INT because the ball bounced right off a WR’s hands (Hi, Santana), or a guy ran the wrong route? Rex Grossman gets a lot of shit from us, and a good portion of it is well deserved, but a LOT the things we put on him are not actually his fault.I am not advocating sticking with Rex Grossman. I am simply pointing out a flaw in your logic.
I would just like to point out that Flacco, Ryan, Tebow, Smith, Vick, Rivers, Sanchez, and Freeman are either not doing very well so far or are not playing for their original team.
Have you considered that most starters are first rounders because first rounders are given more of a chance?
I think I have already explained all the things wrong with this above.
Explain how having 3 players taken in the top 3 rounds on your OL makes them low round picks. we won’t have any 2nd or 3rd round picks if we trade up for Griffin.
Jamaal Brown allowed 9 sacks this season, and only 2 of them came against the Bills. Not to mention his many many pressures allowed. Grossman actually saved a ton of sacks by throwing the ball away. The number of times Beck got sacked is Grossman minus the many, many throwaways.
I pick the Patriots, who happen to be in the super bowl. Please check their draft round statuses for me.
Chris Chester is a bottom 5 Right Guard and we have no idea how Licht will recover from injury. As far as RT, we will not have a 2nd or 3rd round pick to get one with if we trade up to #2 for Griffin.
I would like to introduce you to Patrick Ramsey. He’s the guy who the Redskins got and then didn’t provide him with accurate support. He quickly became shellshocked and never reached his full potential. Jacksonville’s Blaine Gabbert is very much in danger of following the same route.
Tell that to Alex Smith, Joe Flacco, Tim Tebow, etc.
You really like to repeat yourself about the defenses, but those Defenses are only “historically bad” if you only look at the “yards allowed” stat, as I have detailed above.
Fixed that for you.
Sorry, but RG3 is not going to be one of the best QBs of all time. You’ll also notice that Peyton only has 1 ring.
But we don’t actually know that he is, and he certainly won’t be if not surrounded by talent at other positions.
TheDeepBall - February 2, 2012
ehhh... Too many words. Not worth the effort.
mbedner - February 2, 2012
Appreciate your feedback
And I think you make a lot of key points. Some of which, I must say, were a bit nitpicky and miss my point (in particular, saying Forte>Cutler (who went down first, btw??), and saying Peyton Manning “only” has 1 ring massively discounts the impact he’s had… also, ask Dan Marino if 1 ring is any good. And the Patriots line is one example of a team with high picks, but they also haven’t had to draft a quarterback in the first round since Drew Bledsoe.).
Obviously I’ve used up a lot of ink (internet ink?) on expressing my opinion, but let me just say this:
Of course there are first round busts at QB. There are at OL, (Robert Gallery) WR (Lions franchise) and every other position in the top 10. Whether or not Griffin is we won’t know yet. My entire point is that it is time to make a young QB a priority or we will be making this same debate next year. And evidence shows we have a great chance to get him this year. At some point we have to pull the trigger, right? What are we waiting for, exactly? You make a lot of nice points but don’t seem to suggest an ultimatum.
And yes, I do think that 2012 RGIII would be a top QB in most other drafts, including last year’s (don’t think he would have gone over Cam Newton? RG was a way better passer in college), 2010 (Think Rams still take Bradford with the injury?), 2009 (Sanchez).
This is a long post and it would take me probably 3 hours to refute all those points, so I encourage you to write a post yourself where you express them in a more coherent order. But thank you for reading and responding!
mmford10 - February 2, 2012
+1 on the nitpicky
HogtieJim - February 2, 2012
Thanks
mmford10 - February 2, 2012
facial...
jgibbsfan1 - February 2, 2012
oopsie
I had a poopsie.
+1
SCSkin21 - February 2, 2012
clean up on isle 5...
jgibbsfan1 - February 2, 2012
Couldn't agree more
At some point we have to go all in on a QB and why should we keep postponing this? If Shanny and the scouts are convinced then they need to do what they need to do. Franchise QBs don’t grow on trees and it has been suggested way too matter of factly on this site that we can just trade down and pick our QB in the 2nd round. THAT IS FREAKING HARD TO DO!! The Tom Bradys/ Drew Brees picks are often imitated but rarely duplicated.
Floppy P Key - February 2, 2012
Great post, agree with pretty much all your points
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
Thank you
For writing literally everything I wanted to say. Typing all that on an iPhone would be highly irritating :)
tuckwell - February 2, 2012 via iPhone app
tremendous post!
Factual, knowledgable, wise.
Belly Kilmer - February 4, 2012
I always use the Matt Ryan argument
‘Phins chose to take the farnchise OT in Jake Long & pass on QB. Look how that’s working. #gettheQB
CptChaosSidekick - February 2, 2012
Well, if Matt Flynn turns out to be Aaron Rogers lite, it turned out really really well.
mbedner - February 2, 2012
Jake Long is a pro bowler
yet the Dolphins still has not turned it around. yet the Falcons picked Matt Ryan and Bingo they are in the playoffs every year. People forgot what a mess the Falcons was in after Vick went to jail, and with picking Ryan it all turned around for them
Highspeed30 - February 2, 2012
You think the Falcons suddenly got good because of Matt Ryan?
Sure he’s a good QB but that would like saying the 49ers improved this year because of the improvement of Alex Smith.
Obviously other things changed within the organization that to facilitate Matt Ryan’s success.
Basketnarb - February 2, 2012
49'ers have elite D & coach of the year
I call it Trent Dilfer syndrome . OT isn’t worth much if the QB sucks anyway.
CptChaosSidekick - February 2, 2012
They was 4-12 before he got there
they went 11-5 his rookie year, he was the MAIN reason why they had success, they brought in other pieces like Michael Turner but it was Ryan’s play at QB that turned that team around, if Grossman was QB or Chris Redman or Joey Harrington was at the helm they would NOT be where they are now
Highspeed30 - February 2, 2012
Atlanta gave Ryan the tools to succeed
If you think their line is worse than ours, you’re incorrect. They gave him a big bruiser at RB, arguably the greatest pass catching TE in league history and especially with Julio Jones, a stable of WRs that facilitate a great downfield attack.
tuckwell - February 2, 2012 via iPhone app
No.... They had a good base because of Michael Vick.
Copious 1 - February 2, 2012 via Android app
I didn't realize football was a 1-on-1 sport
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
of course its not
However good sir QB is the most important position in sports & look at the direction each team went. ALSO Miami passed on Brees & look at that to #gettheQB lol
CptChaosSidekick - February 2, 2012
Look, first of all your sig is one of my favorite simpson lines of all time.
Second of all, I don’t think it’s helpful to look at the direction of the teams without looking at all the talent around them.
Atlanta’s offense has been almost entirely run-oriented, so Matt Ryan actually hasn’t been the reason they’ve been good.
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
Their defense is nothing to sneeze at either
Rekka - February 2, 2012
1) Thank you
2) Good point but I guess what i’m getting is QB is the only position that can generate wins by its self
3) I have no idea why im double posting all over the F’ing place
CptChaosSidekick - February 2, 2012
Look at San Fran, they won on DEF and Running game all year
2) Good point but I guess what i’m getting is QB is the only position that can generate wins by its self
StephanHart - February 2, 2012
Alex Smith was a top 10 QB this year. People keep forgetting that San Fran also got vastly improved QB play.
HogtieJim - February 2, 2012
Alex Smith was a top 10 QB because he protected the ball
he was 17th in Completions, 20th in attempts, 27th in yards per game, 17th in TDs, but 1st in INTs thrown
Rekka - February 2, 2012
I agree with everything you wrote mmford
you could have also added
to the we need a o-line first group-we had jon jansen chris samuls randy thomas for years probowlers and still we won nothing because we had no qb
to the trade back group – see 2008 draft we traded back and got the top rated wr’s in that draft and it actually set the franchise back
bottom line the redskins have never aquired a top quaterback prospect since dan baught the team we have tried to win in every other way except this meanwhile other crappy franchises are getting better while we are waiting for some mystery vet to take us to the promise land
taylor21 - February 2, 2012
Trying to win
with Vinny Ceratto making the choices is like trying to fight with a vice clamped on your balls.
TheDeepBall - February 2, 2012
you and your wild analogy's lol
It doesnt matter that it was vinny devin and malcom were still the top rated WR in 2008 any gm would probally have done the same if the priority going into the off season was getting tall WR’s. that move actually set us back way more than it helped us we passed a lot of taleted players who are still starting for there respective teams by doing that .but honestly at the time I was happy. Im just making the point that trading back for crappy back ups is a luxury that good teams have . We need all the talent we can get around here . and at the end of the day over the last few years more teams who drafted top/ 1st round quaterbacks are making the playoffs as a result of that and new coaching. see stellrs/ravens/falcons/jets. now I know how you feel about joe flacco but the fact is they were not making the playoffs and winning with mcNair/ boller
taylor21 - February 2, 2012
we've tried to win in every other way except this
and building through youth like we are doing now.
Basketnarb - February 2, 2012
Bravo TheDeepBall
Well said and right on point.
Trading multiple high picks would be continuing the problem that has plagued this franchise for much of the last 20+ years and certainly since Snyder bought the team. For the first time since Gibbs left the first time it appears that there is a plan in place to build a long term winner and trading multiple high picks for one player would be counter-productive. Redskins fans need to stay-the-course, be patient through one more building year and get ready for a terrific 2013. That is, as long as we bring a solid group of young players from this years draft just like we did last years draft. And the truth is that with the right mix of solid veteran FAs, Flynn, Meachem, etc., we could still be in the playoff hunt next year.
The fact is that for 15 years the Ravens have been putting out a winning product in our backyard by putting a strong TEAM on the field by putting together incredibly strong defenses with really good offensive lines and RBs. The last few years are the first time they have had a solid QB and good WRs and yet we would all take the success they have had in a heartbeat. Trading multiple 1st 2nd and 3rd round picks for a QB is not something that those kind of teams do and if we want to be like them then we can’t do it either.
Basketnarb - February 2, 2012
How are you going to have a terrific 2013?
with no QB or a rookie QB?? most of the Rookie QB’s do not have early success
Highspeed30 - February 2, 2012
Matt Flynn
Not to mention more and more QBs are having success in their rookie year – Matt Ryan, Joe Flaco, Cam Newton, Andy Dalton, Mathew Stafford – so it’s not out of the question to think that Matt Barkley or some other QB we would get in the first round would perform well enough for us to make a playoff run.
Basketnarb - February 2, 2012
Bottom line is...
If the staff and scouts think Griffin is a can’t miss QB worthy of a top 5 pick and if we have the resources to make a deal to move up then the answer is quite clear. Decisions like these are what get people fired.
xocnodnarb - February 2, 2012
Decisions to pass on the opportunity (to be clear).
xocnodnarb - February 2, 2012
I feel like another RG3 breakdown
might be on the cards…
UkRedskin - February 2, 2012
is that a British saying?
Parks Smith - February 2, 2012
RG3 breakdown
“To kill the horse via blunt instrument,revive using modern technology & repeat as nessasary.”
CptChaosSidekick - February 2, 2012
We need to draft RG3 for really three reasons.
1. Because if they don’t and try to bamboozle the fans with some more Beck bullshit, Shanny will be fired faster than Steve can say “Jammal Brown sucks!”
2. Ticket sales. People seem to think this isn’t a big deal (Parks), but this economy sucks ass. I know first hand people are dumping season tickets faster than Kim Kardashian divorced that bench warmer.
3. we need to win, NOW. There’s no breast feeding a rookie QB behind some empty jersey, nameless QB until he’s ready. Get the superstar. Market him. Play him week 1.
iH8dallas - February 2, 2012
Pure, unadulterated Genius!! I am new to this site and am sorry to hear that mmford10 doesn’t post here often. That might have been the finest article I’ve read this year, anywhere. To quote Kevin Bacon in “A Few Good Men”, “These are the facts of the case, and they are indisputable…”
I agree whole-heartedly… Find some O-linemen and maybe a WR in Free Agency, then go “all-in” on Draft day with the Rams for RG3!!
Do you really want to see that guy go to the Browns!?!? As good as he is, he won’t turn them around, but the opposite – they will turn him around. I mean, look how good of care they take of their QB’s… sending their current one back into a game where he was almost knocked out cold and for sure had signs of a concussion – we could all see it through the TV… how come they could not on the sidelines?!?!
Besides, the Browns have had AMPLE chances up front of the draft to find their guy and have failed considerably everytime – someone else who hasn’t gets a turn this year and it should be the Skins!! We haven’t had a solid ‘every-year’ starter in 2 decades…
Like it or not, today’s NFL is a QB led league… Great points, Awesome article!!
Knightwchmn - February 2, 2012
amen, hallelujah....
jgibbsfan1 - February 2, 2012
Didn't Kevin Bacon's character end up losing that case?
KCDrew - February 2, 2012
out of curiousity
if the colts draft rg3 would you guys (thedeepball)/ (basketnarb) would you guys be against trading up for luck? Is it trading up your against or trading up for a qb you dont believe in ?
taylor21 - February 2, 2012
Actually a very interesting question
mmford10 - February 2, 2012
Couldn't Disagree More.
You’re proposition that the Redskins must do ANYTHING to move up in this draft is a dangerous line of thought.
While you may be correct that most playoff teams have 1st round QBs, why is it necessary that THIS is the one and only season in which the Redskins MUST get a top QB?
Why doesn’t it make more sense to continue rebuilding, garner picks for next year, and then move up if we want next season during a QB-rich draft season?
StephanHart - February 2, 2012
Does Danny have patience is the question?
I don’t want to see a new regime in 2013. Do you?
xocnodnarb - February 2, 2012
I think we can’t truly rebuild until we fill our biggest need. Perhaps this isn’t the year, but I just feel like we’ll be throwing away another season. As several have noted, there are a few things wrong with that idea, including a rapidly fracturing fan base and a team with no leaders.
I honestly would like to hear a dissenting opinion as to what the Redskins should draft instead. Another tackle?
mmford10 - February 2, 2012
That's what you'l prob get
as many on here have been advocating taking Reiff at #6, of moving back and targeting DeCastro or Adams. The “we need more linemen” crowd are never satisified
Tiller56 - February 2, 2012
Never satisfied? Tiller, you act as if we've been plugging in Linemen in here for years. We're talking about a unit thats been neglected for a decade
StephanHart - February 2, 2012
Did we not just sign a first round tackle
and pay a lot of money for a former pro bowl rt(whether that worked out of not, is not the point). But you can not sit here and honestly tell me we have not put resources into our O-Line. The first signing Shanny made in DC was Licht. Many said he wasn’t good, but he proved everyone wrong. We signed Chester, who was an upgrade anyway you look at it. We got rid of Rabach, which was addition by subtraction. We drafted depth last year in Hurt, and signed a possible diamond in the rough in Smith. Arguably, we have put more resources on both the offensive and defensive lines than any other position since Shanny has taken over.
The one true area, that we have neglected for years, has been QB. I don’t think there is any arguing that.
Tiller56 - February 2, 2012
I'm starting to sway a bit
on o-line.
It needs an upgrade, not an overhaul.
Rekka - February 2, 2012
Um... Because we are there now...
…and I don’t want to suffer through another abyssmal season like this past one to get up there again next year!!
Where you and so many others will make this same argument AGAIN next year… When is enough enough? Our time is now – TAKE IT!!
Knightwchmn - February 2, 2012
If we trade it all, and RG3 is anything LESS than SPECTACULAR, our time wont be for another 5 years, count on it
StephanHart - February 2, 2012
It's a Barkley conspiracy. I'm convinced.
xocnodnarb - February 2, 2012
No, it's a do what i think is best for the franchise conspiracy
StephanHart - February 2, 2012
RG3 > Barkley
Tiller56 - February 2, 2012
none of the QB's coming out next year
are better than RG3 or Luck. not Barkley, not Jones, not Wilson, not Bray, not Murray.
Highspeed30 - February 2, 2012
Agree
mmford10 - February 2, 2012
Not the correct mindset.
Are any of next year’s QBs good enough to be The Man in DC? That’s the question, and I see three or four guys in whom I feel confident in saying yes to that question. I only see two this year.
Relative ability isn’t important. Is PManning better than Big Ben? Without a doubt. Which one is most certainly a fit for Pittsburgh, though?
tuckwell - February 2, 2012 via iPhone app
next year is unknown
there is a lot of things that could happpen between now and next year. a couple QB’s could go back to school, someone could get hurt, a guy could regress like Landry Jones did this year, not to mention you dont know where you will be drafting, what additonal needs come up, what teams are drafting at the top of the board and do they need QB’s if so there goes that genius plan of waiting til next year. When you know exactly where you pick now, and 3 teams in the Top 5 dont need a QB and the 2 prospects are some of the best prospects in a while
Highspeed30 - February 2, 2012
And that's why they pay guys like Bruce Allen a ton of money.
Nobody on this board truly knows what they’re talking about. Not one person. We’re all just gabbing. My gab comes from the belief that the team cannot afford to pass up the width and breadth of this draft to aquire the depth of one player.
tuckwell - February 3, 2012
you dont have to have a perfect team
to try and acquire a franchise type of QB, i would mich rather have quality over quantity in this case cause it is at the most important position in foortball. You dont have to be Shanahan or Bruce Allen to see that the Redskins QB play is horrible.
you would not take Ed Reed(future HOF), Haloti Nagta, and Lardarius Webb 3 very good players over Tom Brady, or over Drew Brees, or over Aaron Rodgers, or over Eli Manning.
it is just easier to replace all other positions except QB that is a fact and if u get to chance to fill that spot at Franchise QB then you are set for 10-15 years where you can draft on a need basis but you would not have to worry about the leader of your team
Highspeed30 - February 3, 2012
Nice strawman :)
Nobody ever said anything about a perfect team.
tuckwell - February 3, 2012
Explain
Trade it all…I have see no one say anything about trading it all!!! Its time to chill on the extreme statments and come in off the ledge…a trade up will not destroy the franchise (that was done a few years ago) … but a trade up can completely revitalize one the the NFL’s greatest franchises and put it back in the ranks of the best, where it belongs.
Legacee - February 2, 2012
every year they say
next year there will be plenty of qb’s and by draft day half of those guys are gradded to be 2nd round picks or below what makes you so sure that a team would be willing to trade back? obviously if they are drafting higher than us they probally have qb problems of there own and we would probally end up with the 3d best guy next year instead of the second best guy this year. the browns have 2 first round picks yet they can not trade up for luck so why do you think people will trade back if barkley is next years luck ?
taylor21 - February 2, 2012
No one will be Luck next year
StephanHart - February 2, 2012
bradford was luck 2 years ago
taylor21 - February 2, 2012
No he wasnt
StephanHart - February 2, 2012
Why not this year?
Stephan your point can be made year after year.
Lets say we go with building more…and then next year, we are closer, but not quite there? Do we go get the QB or do we keep building?!?!?!?!
The point is , there will never be a perfect time…but there can be a right time! Now is the right time!
Legacee - February 2, 2012
Great post
and I agree with all of it
This is what sticks out most for me. Every year people are scared of drafting a QB because they might bust so would rather strengthen other areas to begin with. Eventually something needs to be done and there’s no better time that this year.
PJ_21 - February 2, 2012
Exactly!!
Knightwchmn - February 2, 2012
Why, exactly?
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
Exactly, why is THIS year so dire that we have to risk everything to get a QB no one ever heard of before this season?
StephanHart - February 2, 2012
I don't like the "whatever it takes" approach
but the feeling around these parts, myself included, every year has been “we can get a QB next year.”
At some point there does have to be a year, so why NOT this year?
Rekka - February 2, 2012
Because of the lack of talent on this team and the cost of trading up to get RG3. It is an extremely risky proposition to trade up, especially at this point in our rebuild
StephanHart - February 2, 2012
There's no way of knowing what kind of position we'll be in to draft a QB next year
who’s to say we won’t be in the teens? The cost of trading up could potentially be worse to grab one of those guys.
It is risky, and I said I don’t advocate whatever it takes to get this guy but two firsts and a second SEEMS to be what’s floating around, while tough to swallow a bit, shouldn’t be a deterrent this year if they feel that he’s the one they want
Rekka - February 2, 2012
+1000
What if several ELITE teams fall like Indy did…and our consistent play opens the door for more wins. Now you would need more picks to move up and get an Elite talent at QB…but no one is thinking of that!!!
We know, WE KNOW we have the #6 pick this year and where we need to be to get “The GUY”…we have no clue where we will stand next year…and that is a far more risky than trading up now.
Legacee - February 2, 2012
Why does it matter what it would cost next year?
You can’t be AFRAID of success this year. Gutting two drafts to get RG3 might put us in the teens too, except we won’t have that pick available, and we won’t be able to improve beyond that point for at least two years. Be responsible with picks this year and we’ll be ok to blow two drafts next year and still improve.
tuckwell - February 2, 2012 via iPhone app
blowing picks is blowing picks
whether it is this year or next year it makes no difference.
Highspeed30 - February 2, 2012
Sure, its all the same?
Nothing at all wrong with blowing two drafts on a lesser prospect next year. No, its not the same.
Bryan Black - February 2, 2012 via Android app
agreed
Rekka - February 2, 2012
Wrong
If you have add to the overall talent this year, similar to last year, you can afford to blow a couple of drafts due to the better overall talent of the team. If you blow two drafts this year/next year, you are waiting until 2014 before adding quality impact players to support him.
1footballguru - February 2, 2012
I don't agree with you so I'm wrong?
Rekka - February 2, 2012
So the assumption is there that if we trade up this year we will miss out on depth players this and next year?
If so I can easily counter with we could trade down this year and miss and still miss it next year. This front office so far hasn’t given you any reason yet to assume that we will miss simply because they are lower round picks. The QB dramatically changes the talent around you. Is Deion freaking Branch that good or is a lot of it attributed to Brady? Dude goes to Seattle and he is an average receiver. Hell, I will go so far to say that Devin Thomas probably wouldn’t have busted had he gone to a team with a franchise QB. The point is that franchise QB’s make garbage receivers mediocre, make mediocre receivers productive, and makes above average receivers Wes Welker. And I can make that argument to any offensive position on the field…the franchise QB makes every offensive position better
Bryan Black - February 2, 2012 via Android app
Again, I am all for trading up to get RG3, if the price is right. But
the point I was making on this thread was that if you trade away this years picks and next years picks you do have to wait until 2014 to add top end talent to your team via the draft and depth players, if you do that now, ie last years group, you then have next year to move up and then less of a need for the draft in 2013/14. I agree with you that a Elite Qb makes everyone else around him better, never once said otherwise.
1footballguru - February 2, 2012
I gotcha
If its fair to way that 9 picks are made per draft, then we would have 18 picks in two years…sending 3 picks away (6th pick doesn’t count cause its a swap) will not cripple us as some are saying. I will say this, I would be more apt to trade down if our draft from last year didn’t work out like it did. Now, the jury is still out on a few guys but most of them appear to be solid additions. There is no reason why it can’t be duplicated
Bryan Black - February 2, 2012 via Android app
I agree with all your points, let's hope what others have said about CLE not wanting to trade up
then we can get RG3 without mortgaging the future…at least not mortgaging the future too much. I think a 1st and 2nd this year with a 1st next year is a fair price to pay to move up. Eli trade was 1st and 3rd plus the next years 1st and 5th. almost equal to what I just offered and they were going up from 4th to 1st.
1footballguru - February 2, 2012
I am a draft guy, and think there is plenty of talent to be had in mid-late rds of this draft
I just think that is how the best teams are so dominate cause they pick good between rounds 3-7 and pick guys with potential and that fit into their system and then they develop the talent so in a couple years they can be starters, the guy we got in last years draft class should progress and take a step forward guys like Nield 7th rd, Paul 5th rd, Hurt 7th rd, Smith UDFA, Gomes 5th rd, and we get a 2nd round pick in Jarvis Jenkins(that is why i am ok with parting with this years 2nd) and Hankerson coming back should take a big step forward. So when you trade up to get a guy like RG3 these guys are gonna grow with him in addition to our 3rd rd pick this year I am hoping a Wr like Marvin McNutt, Brian Quick,Jeff Fuller, 4th rd pick like C David Molk or TE Ladarius Green, other 4th a guy like CB Bill Bentley, Donnie Fletcher, and when you can get guys in those rounds and develop them then you can build a team and those are the hungry guys that is looking to make a name for themselves. and then add to that next year cause you should still have all your picks except the 1st and 3rd or 4th, and maybe you can make some trade backs then like you did last year to get some more bodies
Highspeed30 - February 3, 2012
Plenty of risk in not getting a big upgrade in QB talent (and the QB talent level falls off a cliff after RG3). There is no safe ground.
HogtieJim - February 2, 2012
Stephan...
You act like we are instantly going to be talented…you act like the guys we have drafted last year won’t pan out…stop seeing the glass as half empty.
Odds are, the production this year will come from 2nd and 3rd year guys that are finally comfortable in the system and in the league. So the talent that you think will mysteriously appear next year (which will give you peace of mind in drafting a QB) is more than likely already on the team…or will be after FA opens.
Legacee - February 2, 2012
I think the problem lies in that folks are gun shy because of the old regime and the bad decisions that happened
Bryan Black - February 2, 2012 via Android app
Because trading from #20 to #2 will cost significantly more picks than trading from #6 to #2.
Copious 1 - February 2, 2012 via Android app
This assumes you need to move up that high, Ben and Cutler went much lower than 2nd pick and the cost to trade up goes down significantly.
1footballguru - February 2, 2012
Who is as good a prospect in next years draft?
Copious 1 - February 2, 2012 via Android app
Still early, but
Barkley, Bray, Jones and Wilson are all considered potential #1 picks next year, only after the season next year will we know if they are as solid as RG3. This is just the list of potential QB’s. Good class next year for sure.
1footballguru - February 2, 2012
Cause Robert Griffin III is a 1st overall pick quality QB
and the Redskins are in a position that they can trade up for him. There are some that think RG3 is a better prospect than Luck. And if Griffin reaches his total potential he will be Better than LUCK so this is the best time.
Highspeed30 - February 2, 2012
because smutsboy.
we were a few bad rex games and 3 beck starts away from a 8-8 season. if we do the trade back idea and get a FA QB that doesnt have all the bad rex games we are a 8-8 to 9-7 team. with some luck we might get 10-6….. so the next year we will still have to trade up with a greater cost then trading up from #6. i just think our best year to trade up is this year to save us both shanny`s and our own time. plus it saves us from having to give up alot more picks next year for a qb that might not be as good as RG3.
munson21502 - February 2, 2012
This sums up what my answer would have been..
PJ_21 - February 2, 2012
Love Bacon quote
I don’t think Browns trade up for him but if he falls to them then it could be another story
CptChaosSidekick - February 2, 2012
It's also unbelievable to me that Redskins fans railed against the practices of Vinny, pleaded for a patient approach to building a great NFL roster. And after 2 seasons, people are ready to risk it all on 1 QB. Unreal.
StephanHart - February 2, 2012
Pretty unreal that people believe a QB isn’t vital in today’s NFL. Vinny mostly traded for old vets. Rarely did he trade up for elite young talents. Its a big difference. There is no fixed strategy that works all the time. You have to be flexible to get the right talent your team needs. Mostly you hold on to picks but you have to be willing to be aggressive if you see a great talent at the most important position.
HogtieJim - February 2, 2012
Its fine to be aggressive when you ARENT a team that has gutted it's own drafts for the past 10 years
StephanHart - February 2, 2012
See now you are focusing on past fears and past mistakes. You can’t let the past paralyze you into being too conservative. If the talent is right at QB, you pay the price. Better to fail taking the chance on the right talent than settling for longer shots.
HogtieJim - February 2, 2012
No, I'm focused on the fact that the Redskins have had a dearth of talent. Rebuilding and conservative draft strategy can help us get back to neutral. We need to do this before we consider taking huge risks for a QB
StephanHart - February 2, 2012
Shanny has 2 years left. The time for neutral is done. I can see making a case for Flynn, but the options are limited that have a legitimate chance of getting the Skins back to winning enough for Shanny to keep his job. And if he loses his job rebuilding will start again anyway.
HogtieJim - February 2, 2012
So if I don't want to trade for RGIII that means I don't think QB is vital?
Nice try.
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
+1
StephanHart - February 2, 2012
this is NOT a Vinny approach
trading for a washed up MCnabb was a Vinny approach. This guy is a 22 year old Top QB prospect when did vinny go all in for a Top QB prospect??? Patrick Ramsey? stop saying it is a vinny move cause it aint overpaying in cap space or in picks for a past his prime player
Highspeed30 - February 2, 2012
Tru Dat
Knightwchmn - February 2, 2012
Big difference
And I think you know that. Talking about trading for a potential franchise QB. Not signing the likes of Archuleta and Fat Al.
Bryan Black - February 2, 2012 via Android app
First Round QBs
Year Quarterback Drafted By
1983 John Elway Baltimore Colts
1983 Todd Blackledge Kansas City Chiefs
1983 Jim Kelly Buffalo Bills
1983 Tony Eason New England Patriots
1983 Ken O’Brien New York Jets
1983 Dan Marino Miami Dolphins
1986 Jim Everett Houston Oilers
1986 Chuck Long Detroit Lions
1987 Vinny Testaverde Tampa Bay Buccaneers
1987 Kelly Stouffer St. Louis Cardinals
1987 Chris Miller Atlanta Falcons
1987 Jim Harbaugh Chicago Bears
1989 Troy Aikman Dallas Cowboys
1990 Jeff George Indianapolis Colts
1990 Andre Ware Detroit Lions
1991 Dan McGwire Seattle Seahawks
1991 Todd Marinovich Los Angeles Raiders
1992 David Klingler Cincinnati Bengals
1992 Tommy Maddox Denver Broncos
1993 Drew Bledsoe New England Patriots
1993 Rick Mirer Seattle Seahawks
1994 Heath Shuler Washington Redskins
1994 Trent Dilfer Tampa Bay Buccaneers
1995 Steve McNair Houston Oilers
1995 Kerry Collins Carolina Panthers
1997 Jim Druckenmiller San Francisco 49ers
1998 Peyton Manning Indianapolis Colts
1998 Ryan Leaf San Diego Chargers
1999 Tim Couch Cleveland Browns
1999 Donovan McNabb Philadelphia Eagles
1999 Akili Smith Cincinnati Bengals
1999 Daunte Culpepper Minnesota Vikings
1999 Cade McNown Chicago Bears
2000 Chad Pennington New York Jets
2001 Michael Vick Atlanta Falcons
2002 David Carr Houston Texans
2002 Joey Harrington Detroit Lions
2002 Patrick Ramsey Washington Redskins
2003 Carson Palmer Cincinnati Bengals
2003 Byron Leftwich Jacksonville Jaguars
2003 Kyle Boller Baltimore Ravens
2003 Rex Grossman Chicago Bears
2004 Eli Manning San Diego Chargers
2004 Philip Rivers New York Giants
2004 Ben Roethlisberger Pittsburgh Steelers
2004 J.P. Losman Buffalo Bills
2005 Alex Smith San Francisco 49ers
2005 Aaron Rodgers Green Bay Packers
2005 Jason Campbell Washington Redskins
2006 Vince Young Tennessee Titans
2006 Matt Leinart Arizona Cardinals
2006 Jay Cutler Denver Broncos
2007 JaMarcus Russell Oakland Raiders
2007 Brady Quinn Cleveland Browns
2008 Matt Ryan Atlanta Falcons
2008 Joe Flacco Baltimore Ravens
2009 Matt Stafford Detroit Lions
2009 Mark Sanchez New York Jets
2009 Josh Freeman Tampa Bay Buccaneers
2010 Sam Bradford St. Louis Rams
2010 Tim Tebow Denver Broncos
2011 Cam Newton Carolina Panthers
2011 Jake Locker Tennessee Titans
2011 Blaine Gabbert Jacksonville Jaguars
2011 Christian Ponder Minnesota Vikings
Tell me which one of these guys is worth 2 first rounders, a second and a fourth. Then without a reservation, tell which of the few QBS worth that from this list is RG3 absolutely better then.
Ghost_Ryder - February 2, 2012
THIS
StephanHart - February 2, 2012
This is a great way to make your point
(I mean that honestly)
Very powerful counter-argument, but I think it paints things a bit black and white. Obviously, hard to say who Griffin is better than, and some of those guys were picked in the 20’s or 30’s instead of the top 5. Although that doesn’t take Ryan Leaf/Akili Smith/Russell off the list.
And my entire argument does hinge on the disclaimer that the scouts/coaches have to see what I think a lot of us see in Griffin as a college prospect (that he could be a really great QB in the NFL).
By the way, given our QB situation, the nature of the NFL, and the lack of free agents, there are a few people in that list worthy of 4 picks. The really excellent QB’s are, I think. Wouldn’t you think Eli/Rivers/Rodgers are? Too early to tell with most of the younger guys.
Nice post.
mmford10 - February 2, 2012
Then wouldn't you agree, with the history of drafted QBs, that trading vast amounts of resources for RG3 is not a sound, logical move to make?
StephanHart - February 2, 2012
not not at all
we been down for 20 years. if we never make the move we will stay down. if we wait till we build up the fall is much further back to the bottom. its worth the risk to try imo. while we are down here going 6-10 5-11 almost every year. you just dont see teams with good qbs have these kind of seasons year in and year out.
munson21502 - February 2, 2012
But it is black and white.
In the overall history of the game, teams that throw a ton of draft picks afterone player damage themselves greater in the following years. Take New Orleans, gave their entire draft to take Ricky Williams and ended stunting the growth of the team for several years because they could not back fill talent.
I am sure there are more examples. And even some that show the opposite but if the team is truly one player away it can make a difference for short term. Atlanta threw everthing to get Jones and I believe hurt themselves for a couple of years. Time will tell.
Ghost_Ryder - February 2, 2012
@ Stephen — personally, no, but the argument is certainly worth considering. The trading a lot of picks approach has worked in the past, as it did for the Giants, for instance. The Chargers ended up with Rivers and a complement of other picks that they turned into a few really good players… But the Giants are obviously better off. Take that argument as you like.
It has also failed, as noted. I would be doing the thousands of words I wrote above injustice if I were to refute this argument again, I think, yeah? Thanks for your opinion, though, and your argument certainly isn’t flawed, even if I/others disagree.
@ Ghost — To be fair, though, the Redskins didn’t exactly turn the corner as the receiving end of that Ricky Williams trade. We got Champ Bailey out of it, but the fact that we weren’t able to build a team off of that draft and the 2000 draft alone seems pretty astounding. Maybe speaks to my point that draft picks are overvalued.
You would think that trading your whole draft to another team would yield astounding results for the receiving team. Out of those 6 extra picks, we were able to get 3 players that ever made an impact in Washington (Samuels, Arrington, and Bailey). With the exception of Samuels, I believe none of them ever saw the field during a playoff game in Washington.That could be way off though, I’m running out of steam…
mmford10 - February 2, 2012
You are partially right.
It would be valuable to a team that valued Scouting and drafting with a single purpose. kind of the way Dallas did when they traded Hershel Walker to the Vikings for everything. And the way I think we are setup to do now.
Ghost_Ryder - February 2, 2012
in reference to draft picks...
so many talk about the value of picks. But if that were true, why doesn’t Indy trade Luck away for multiple picks. The fact is, they value the player more than the potential multiple players, especially since they know some of those players will never become anything in the NFL.
Yes, FOs value picks, but they are one of many assests that they possess and use to construct the team the way they see fit.
jgibbsfan1 - February 2, 2012
here is what i am going to say about this
we would love RG3 if we can get him we should however the draft chart is garbage at this point .
i expect the browns can outbid us with their 2 1st rounders , and the 2nd rounders and the 3rd rounders , all of which are higher picks then ours
so saying we wouldnt have to ricky williams a draft isnt exactly true . the price for him could go here
now you say "do anything to get him " so do you ricky williams a draft and gut another to get him ?
dont confuse what you think the price is and call that " doing anything " when in fact it isnt .
i would think long and hard before i gut 2 drafts for one guy . free agency wont solve everything and not having a viable draft till 2014 is risky .
i say this , make a reasonable run at RG3 , but is the price gets stupid simply move on
skinsdad62 - February 2, 2012
Most of us have a line in the sand I believe
To do a Ricky Williams or Herschel Walker type trade up is ridiculous and if that was what was required then St Louis would end up taking BPA. Because they aren’t getting that type of trade from anyone. And about Cleveland outbidding us, I am more than sure that their FO knows our needs and has a line that they won’t cross also. For them to get into a bidding war with us to move up 2 less spots than us is insane.
Bryan Black - February 2, 2012 via Android app
to take every 1st rd quaterback is the biggest error cause a lot of them picks was reaches
Like JPLosman,Christain Ponder. if you take that same list and look at the Top 2 QB prospects in a draft year and you will get a better picture of who really was bust and who was legit
Highspeed30 - February 2, 2012
OK.
But suppose that the first two QBs were a reach also. I dont disagree with taking Griffin but why can we not wait it out to see if he lasts to 6? Two years ago was a sane draft. One QB in the first, Bradford. Denver reached on Tebow, then Clausen in the second and McCoy in the fourth. I like Griffing and think he is a high pick but he is not a valuable as Orakpo, Kerrigan, Jenkins, and Hankerson. that is 2-1’s, a 2nd, and a 4th. How bad is our team if we traded up to get Bradford?
Ghost_Ryder - February 2, 2012
So you would NOT trade those players for
Aaron Rogers??Tom Brady? or Drew Bees? Eli Manning or Matthew Stafford?? cause i would in a heartbeat, all those players can be replaced easier than getting one of these QB’s and of course i am saying if these guys was younger in their prime.
Highspeed30 - February 2, 2012
Those guys are worth that
But, what do you put around them if you trade away everything else? When those guys were brought to their current teams, they did not cost the team an absolute fortune. The one team that paid extra, the Giants, had a good core of players to surround Eli with and even then, the Giants used intelligence to draft good core players that grew into their current roles slowly.
Ghost_Ryder - February 2, 2012
you mean the good core of guys that produced a 4-12 season the year before they got Eli??
my point is QB is the hardest position to fill. I can get the other guys replaced. Even if i got a little lesser talent to fill those spots it wont be as noticeable than if you got Bad QB play. the play of your QB effect your whole team, if you cant convert on 3rd down then your defense is gonna be tired and give up points. you have to get the QB spot filled with a guy to play at a high level.
Highspeed30 - February 2, 2012
That list diminishes significantly if you only look at top 5 picks.
Copious 1 - February 2, 2012
Matt, funny you mention this
Because this has been the majority of the discussion around HH these days
Tiller56 - February 2, 2012
+1 it also appears to be his first time reading in awhile
StephanHart - February 2, 2012
That totally invalidates my entire article!! You're right!
mmford10 - February 2, 2012
Not what i said
StephanHart - February 2, 2012
I don't know why this is still a conversation... we already have RG3
Parks Smith - February 2, 2012
Loved this part Matt
You absolutely hit the nail on the head with this. I love the reference you made to the Packers. I have made that same one 100×.
Tiller56 - February 2, 2012
this would be...
101
ptowny - February 2, 2012
thanks for noticing
and……..god bless
Tiller56 - February 2, 2012
Thank you sir
mmford10 - February 2, 2012
Not to mention the Giant O-line has been terrible this year. Eli has carried the Giants this year because of what he has been able to accomplish under pressure.
HogtieJim - February 2, 2012
The only true Great Line/Great QB combo in the NFL
is the Saints
Tiller56 - February 2, 2012
The Giants OL wasn't terrible. It was average. And was decent enough in pass protection.
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
It was injury ridden
and certainly below average this season
Tiller56 - February 2, 2012
so that's an argument against drafting OL?
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
No, it's an arguement against you saying they were average
and it is certainly an arguement for how a good QB, can overcome a below average O-line. Put Rex as a starter on the Giants, and that team would have won no more than 5 games.
Give us Eli, and we’d have been a playoff team.
Tiller56 - February 2, 2012
wouldn't go that far
their receivers shit on ours
Rekka - February 2, 2012
Wasn’t even close to average. Look how much Eli got pressured.
HogtieJim - February 2, 2012
So all you have to do is draft a top 5 QB! Easy.
Also the Packers OL was never terrible, it was mediocre, in the 15-20 range, but it was not as bad as ours has been for the past 2 years.
Not even close.
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
Can anyone tell me what position the Packers have invested in in the 1st round the past two years?
That tidbit always seems to get lost.
Parks Smith - February 2, 2012
Exactly
and they also had their QB before fixing their old, veteran O-line. Looks like it worked out for them.
Tiller56 - February 2, 2012
huh? How is there situation of "rebuilding" even close to ours?
Its apples and oranges.
Parks Smith - February 2, 2012
all we have to do is draft a top 5 QB!
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
Why does it have to be about Green Bay?
They just have one hell of a QB. What they have accomplished shouldn’t be a blueprint for us.
xocnodnarb - February 2, 2012
I agree 100%
This is the best post I read this off season. My sentiments exactly! And I agree with u 100 percent. We won’t have a better opportunity then now to get our franchise qb. So we have to trade up at all cost. In a perfect world we would have our offensive line intact first but like u already said we can pick up our offensive line needs in later rounds. Plus all, well the majority of rookie qb’s will make their rookie mistakes and have their growing pains so by the time we pick up more offensive linemen RG3 would’ve had time to work out his rookie bugs so to speak. And to all the people who say wait we will eventually have to trade away picks to get the qb and we should be approving each year so now while we have the sixth pick we have to make our move or we will have to trade away even more picks then we would have to this year. On top of there may not be a qb with as much potential as RG3. So I believe it’s a no brainer…… We have to make the trade to get RG3 now. Thanks again for a great post. I couldn’t have said it any better. And I hope now people finally see why we must make that trade.
DWilkinson - February 2, 2012 via mobile
I agree 100%
This is the best post I read this off season. My sentiments exactly! And I agree with u 100 percent. We won’t have a better opportunity then now to get our franchise qb. So we have to trade up at all cost. In a perfect world we would have our offensive line intact first but like u already said we can pick up our offensive line needs in later rounds. Plus all, well the majority of rookie qb’s will make their rookie mistakes and have their growing pains so by the time we pick up more offensive linemen RG3 would’ve had time to work out his rookie bugs so to speak. And to all the people who say wait we will eventually have to trade away picks to get the qb and we should be approving each year so now while we have the sixth pick we have to make our move or we will have to trade away even more picks then we would have to this year. On top of there may not be a qb with as much potential as RG3. So I believe it’s a no brainer…… We have to make the trade to get RG3 now. Thanks again for a great post. I couldn’t have said it any better. And I hope now people finally see why we must make that trade.
DWilkinson - February 2, 2012 via mobile
Sorry….didn’t mean to post twice
DWilkinson - February 2, 2012 via mobile
You can definitly throw the draft value chart(that thing is fukin stupid anyways)
out the window. The new rookie cap has made that null-and-void.
Tiller56 - February 2, 2012
For sure
Only semi-accepted approximation out there as of now, though.
mmford10 - February 2, 2012
Let's look at the absolute best case scenario.
First, the cost. Let’s be realistic, to trade up to the number 2 spot to get an elite QB prospect you will have to give up at least two firsts and a second (maybe two seconds) and some other later round picks. In other words, at least what the Falcons gave up last year to trade for a WR.
Alright, so now you have RGIII and…
RB: young and unproven but good (probably not great) potential
OL: bottom 10 unit
WR: bottom 10 unit, possibly bottom 5.
Going forward:
WR: it’s certainly possible to sign an elite WR in free agency, but it is unlikely you’d develop a top 12 WR corps without drafting well (see: Saints, Packers, Giants)
OL: people need to let go of the pipe dream that elite, not-old OL talent can be found in free agency. It can’t.
So, that is the talent you’ll be working with for the next two years (at least).
(The earliest you could add good young prospects on offense would be the 2014 draft, and they’d only be rookies at that point. Also it’s possible Shanahan develops a couple all pros on the OL from late round picks, but that is statistically unlikely and not a realistic plan going forward)
What kind of success do you reasonably envision with that offensive roster? How good do you really think it can be?
What young QB has done well surrounded by offensive talent that weak?
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
McNabb in Philly. Brady in New England.
iH8dallas - February 2, 2012
McNabb always had a good OL. Had book end tackles for most of his time in Philly in fact.
And their WR is precisely what prevented them from making or winning the SB more often.
Brady has a good OL, and one of the best WRs of the past 10 years.
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
Brady won 3 SBs with wack receivers. With Moss they lost.
iH8dallas - February 2, 2012
Good point.
But early on they were a run-first team and by 2005 he did have pretty solid WRs.
And the whole time his OL was better than anything we’ve had for the past two years.
But yes, certainly brady didn’t have all pros everywhere.
Then again, the odds that RGIII is as good as brady simply aren’t good.
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
It's not about the odds of him being better than Brady.
It’s about the odds of him being better than Tannehill, Foles etc….
iH8dallas - February 2, 2012
Not correct.
This would only be true if we could get RGIII without trading up
We’re talking about trading top draft picks for two years for one player.
So you have to look at what resources RGIII will cost and what success you can reasonably expect from that.
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
Really it's...
… About whether we can spend the next 10 years not drafting a QB and competing in the league as a result of having a top QB.
That’s worth four picks, to me.
mmford10 - February 2, 2012
that's ridiciulous
we don’t trade the house for RGIII so that means we never draft a QB for the next 10 years?
No.
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
Trading the house
is the wrong way to look at it.
It’s likely a 2nd this year(of course we swap 1st’s), and a 1st, and 4th in 2013.
Tiller56 - February 2, 2012
either way
we are going to have to trade up for a QB either this year or next. I don’t see the point in waiting.
prc805 - February 2, 2012
that is the house. 1st and 2nd round are worth more than everything else
Last year Atlanta traded the house.
We will have to do the same.
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
So lost
How is that trading the house?!?!?! Its 1 player this year.
Be reminded that We entered last years draft with what 6 picks…and left with 12 players?!?!
Legacee - February 2, 2012
Underselling it man
It’ll take more than that. Forget the worth of the pick and remember there will be at least two teams bidding against us. I honestly believe it’ll take the 1,2,3 this year AND next to secure the pick.
tuckwell - February 2, 2012 via iPhone app
i will take that bet
that nobody will pay that much, they wont get 6 picks in the first 3 rounds of 2 drafts. not gonna happen.
Highspeed30 - February 2, 2012
But...
It means we may be giving up more than 4 picks next year…and by your argument that would be a no go.
Then the cycle continues…
Legacee - February 2, 2012
Yes, agree
Best comment of this entire thread!
Tiller56 - February 2, 2012
So are you saying...
…the Redskins must wait until they have pro bowlers at every position, down to the 2nd string punter, before they are allowed to draft a QB?
Knightwchmn - February 2, 2012
Very nice
mmford10 - February 2, 2012
How about waiting to a point when we actually have 3 years of full draft classes? Wouldnt that be a shock to the system?
StephanHart - February 2, 2012
!!!.
!!
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
last year was one of best off seasons in a very long time
both in FA and the draft. but we still went 5-11… with all the trade backs and low key FA signings of last year. it helps us aford a final push to get the current coaching staff a better team this year and help them save their jobs. i think the crew will be more agressive this year both in FA and the draft because they know their jobs are on the line starting this season….
munson21502 - February 2, 2012
Yes because Shanny would be gone and who knows how many of those rebuilding picks would be wasted.
HogtieJim - February 2, 2012
Okay...
So you explain how we develop these talented players (offense) without a quality QB?
Legacee - February 2, 2012
This IS the mentality
of the “we need more linemen” crowd.
Tiller56 - February 2, 2012
No, I’m not.
Nice try though.
Answer the question:
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
I envision DOMINANCE!
iH8dallas - February 2, 2012
Another good argument
But I think a Dwayne Bowe/Gaffney/Moss/Hank/Fred Davis/Chris Cooley set of WR’s is much better than bottom 10, don’t you?
Running back will look pretty good with Hightower back, I would think.
(Yes, that’s assuming we re-sign Davis/Hightower, and are able to pry away Bowe, although that could easily be VJax or Colston or whomever.)
And my whole point is that the OL will be made better with a good quarterback.
mmford10 - February 2, 2012
Much better? hard for me to say. Better for sure but definitely not top 10, I’ll tell you that.
I agree, but that doesn’t mean you don’t need some good young prospects on the OL. Only Peyton Manning in his prime turned a terrible OL into a good one. Not even Brees or Brady had to do that.
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
Just out of curiosity
Would you take RT and LG in Rds 1 and 2 if we were to stay put?
mmford10 - February 2, 2012
if there were those players worthy of those picks?
absolutely.
we’ve essentially ignored the OL for a decade, and we could address it without trading up?
absolutely.
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
You do realize
That Top 10 WR corps have a QB that can actually get them the ball as the play is designed?!?!?!!!!!
Legacee - February 2, 2012
Two of the NFL’s best guards are hitting FA this year.
Tiller56 - February 2, 2012
And arguably the league's best center (at least PFF says so)
Chris Meyers
mmford10 - February 2, 2012
And we're guaranteed to get them all, arent we?
StephanHart - February 2, 2012
We should sure as hell be able to get at least one
and add one more via the draft
Tiller56 - February 2, 2012
not if we trade for RGIII
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
Go read the main post again. Plenty of quality linemen later in the draft time and time again.
HogtieJim - February 2, 2012
I read it. Finding those guys is hard to do.
And we should at least find some of them before we trade the house for one player.
“Draft RGIII then find great linemen in later rounds” is not a smart plan.
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
So...
Who do we get at QB if we get great OL first? Since the talent at QB falls off as so many have said…why get one of them over keeping Rex who knows the system better? How does that not set the franchise back even more?
Legacee - February 2, 2012
We can get a variety of G's and C's in the 3rd or 4th...
if we traded picks away. Molk could start for us this year I’m guessing.
ptowny - February 2, 2012
That is not a good plan for an elite OL
that is taking guesses on mid-level prospects
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
This point makes no sense. There is a vastly higher % of elite linemen that were drafted after the first round than there are elite QBs taken after the first round.
HogtieJim - February 2, 2012
irrelevant to my point.
you’re boxing me in an either/or situation and that’s not what i’m arguing.
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
Very good
and relavant point
Tiller56 - February 2, 2012
it's not either/or
sorry my friend.
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
our elite o-line days are over
FA and luck have doomed us from that plan. other current teams have tried that too and it hasnt worked for them either. say we do draft 1 this year. by the time we are in a postion to get another 1 the first 1 will be a FA. unless u got rex type qb then you will be picking in the top ten every year. but you will also have new coaching staffs every 2-4 years gutting the team over and over. thats why we keep seeing the same teams make the playoffs every year. they have good qbs then u have the loser teams like last years bucs that drafted a pretty good qb have a good year then are called contenders year in and year out.
munson21502 - February 2, 2012
An "elite" offensive line...
is built by continuously upgrading each position.
ptowny - February 2, 2012
There are some very good linemen in the 3rd
Molk, Jones
Tiller56 - February 2, 2012
FTFY
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
prob right
but at least 1 Guard will be on the market. Myers also should be.
Tiller56 - February 2, 2012
This past draft they got some good pieces to work with and develop
Smith, Hurt,Nield, Gomes, Niles Paul, Hankerson, Helu and Royster have all played during this past season and no they was not all pro but they are not expected to be cause they was all mid to later round draft picks. I trust that this coaching staff will develop guys that they pick up in later rounds and nother year in the program and they will be better and some will be starters
Highspeed30 - February 2, 2012
You act as if...
We didn’t draft WR and OL last year…and they are not being developed…and won’t be productive
Legacee - February 2, 2012
let me quote from Billy Madison...
“what you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.”
You have entirely forgotten FA and the rest of the draft. So, yes, Insane and idiotic…
jgibbsfan1 - February 2, 2012
WHAT rest of the draft?
You aren’t drafting starters after round three. We won’t have picks before round four for two years. FA is a compliment to the draft, not a supplement.
tuckwell - February 2, 2012 via iPhone app
"You aren't drafting starters after round three."
This statement is nonsense. Please do some research and get back to us.
SCSkin21 - February 2, 2012
No, actually, its fact.
Do players drafted after round three develop into starters? Sure. Takes time. It’s rare when a guy from round 4-7 or UDFA can start as a rookie. Most won’t start until multiple years in the league. You get starters in the first three rounds, by and large.
tuckwell - February 2, 2012 via iPhone app
Helu, Paul, Perry Riley, Gomes, all say hi
Tiller56 - February 2, 2012
Nice try.
Shanahan is known for “making” RBs with his system. Every back we’ve had did well for him. Paul isn’t a sure thing yet. Riley sat a good while. Gomes shouldn’t be starting and wouldn’t have been minus injuries.
tuckwell - February 2, 2012 via iPhone app
Roy Helu would beg to differ
mmford10 - February 2, 2012
Perry Riley would too
1footballguru - February 2, 2012
it is statements like this which confirm in my mind...
that I am NOT crazy for thinking about trading up. Tuck, you come across as someone who is SO STUBBORN, not willing to consider a reasonable argument, and you spew ludicrous statements such as this. You truly are a testament to all those promoting trade down. They should be so proud.
jgibbsfan1 - February 2, 2012
Prove me wrong.
Show me that in an average draft, there are more rookie starters in rounds 4-7 and UDFA than in rounds 1-3. I’m talking first year starters, not needing to sit and develop. Not starting out of necessity due to injury, but genuinely ready to start and play NFL football. There is NOTHING REASONABLE about planning on finding starters at key positions after round 3. Nothing at all.
Seriously man, I know you think if you keep butting heads with me you’re going to “win” something, but there’s nothing to win here. You’re as stubborn as anyone else around here, including me. Not sure why you’re being so damned cantankerous about it.
For what it’s worth, trading down is one option. I’m not screaming “TRADE DOWN!” from the top of my lungs. The irrational discussion around here is coming from people who believe with an unholy zeal that the ONLY way we can EVER win a game again is if we trade up for Robert Griffin III. I simply don’t want to blow up a draft or possibly two just for one player at this stage of the rebuilding process. It’s not time yet. It will, in my opinion, set the franchise back two to three years to do so. Can we trade back? I don’t know. I’m not sure if anyone is willing to trade up to #6, if there’s a player on the board someone would want that badly at that point. I do know that I don’t want to send anywhere from three to seven draft picks to some other team just so that we have a flashy new toy behind center. I’d far rather use those three to seven picks to draft a couple elite starters and some solid potential and/or depth across the entire team, and try this whole “trade up” thing when we’re in better position team wise to do it.
tuckwell - February 3, 2012
it's not cantankerous...
to question your logic. And I realize there is nothing to “win”. These posts are debatable, which means we are making our case for the strategies we believe in. But, if your reasoning used to prove your point is ILLOGICAL, from my stand point, I will call you out or disagree…
In the end, we are going to watch what the FO does with incredible interest, and then we can debate our evaluation of what they’ve done. I look forward to it…
jgibbsfan1 - February 3, 2012
Where have I been illogical?
Seriously, I’d like to know. I try to identify areas of cognitive dissonance in my thinking process and eliminate them.
tuckwell - February 3, 2012 via iPhone app
I don't understand why people keep phrasing it as "two firsts"
I believe swapping firsts would be more accurate and makes it sound way less aggressive.
SCSkin21 - February 2, 2012
It's gonna be a tardfest today.
iH8dallas - February 2, 2012
correction
gonna be= isptowny - February 2, 2012
haha
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
Over/under this post breaking HH coments record?
CptChaosSidekick - February 2, 2012
Over
StephanHart - February 2, 2012
Over
StephanHart - February 2, 2012
Over
StephanHart - February 2, 2012
OK everyone stop!
Two first rounders is what it will cost.
Is Aaron Rodgers worth Clay Matthews and Bryan Bulaga?
Yes! 5 times over.
iH8dallas - February 2, 2012
It will cost more than this
StephanHart - February 2, 2012
But I am not even arguing the cost, I'm arguing against the mentality of Anything for RG3, its insane
StephanHart - February 2, 2012
Add Finley to that bunch. The answer is still yes.
iH8dallas - February 2, 2012
You're argument supposes that RG3 is Aaron Rodgers. How is this logical?
StephanHart - February 2, 2012
Lets be real you draft off of potential
He can be better than Rodgers, he have the potential from the way he played. say what you want about Vick but he was Great in 2010 was a MVP type of player had injuries this season but still played great down the stretch. And Griffin can have that kind of impact and he dont run as much as Vick do. Defenses have to plan to stop Vick and the defense cant rush the passer like they want to cause it could be lights out if they take a bad angle. That is what RG3 brings but with more accuracy
Highspeed30 - February 2, 2012
are we drafting the 4th best QB in the league or are we drafting a rookie?
I forget.
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
+1 exactly. How in the world is RG3 guaranteed to be Aaron Rodgers or anything close. He's not
StephanHart - February 2, 2012
Again its about the best chance of getting the next Aaron Rodgers. Nothing is a sure thing.
HogtieJim - February 2, 2012
key word, and the reason his point is invalid.
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
Chance
There is a chance that your theory is wrong as well!
Building the team could net us more M. Kelley and D. Thomas types…there is always going to be a risk…what they suffer injury and cant play/develop in their first year (as was the case this year)…do we wait another year on a QB until we know we have a talented team?
There will always be risk and chance.
Legacee - February 2, 2012
But the likelihood is that RG3 will be mediocre or worse, just like all of the other 1st round QBs that have been drafted before him
StephanHart - February 2, 2012
Except 1st round Qbs have by far the best chance of success.
HogtieJim - February 2, 2012
so we should never trade up for a QB?
because we don’t know if he’ll be good or not?
prc805 - February 2, 2012
that is incorrect the top 2 QB's in a draft class since 2000
have a 60% chance at being legit not a bust
Highspeed30 - February 2, 2012
Please...
provide evidence when you are making such assertions!
Legacee - February 2, 2012
We're guaranteed nothing if we don't get a QB to begin w/
CptChaosSidekick - February 2, 2012
+1000000000000000000
Tiller56 - February 2, 2012
Exactly.
HogtieJim - February 2, 2012
Who has a BETTER chance of becoming great
Tannehill/Foles/Weeden/Flynn…………….or RG3?
If your a Gambling Man, you’d put a days wages on the latter.
Tiller56 - February 2, 2012
Okay, but which one of those would cost you 4-6 draft picks to get?
StephanHart - February 2, 2012
to me
drafting Tannehill or Foles is a wasted pick.
prc805 - February 2, 2012
you cant fix are qb situation hoping to find a flyer in the 7th round..
RG3 or Luck are better than any qb’s next year,we’re in postion THIS YEAR, RIGHT NOW, to get one. Trading up is the only way to do it. i dont know how, unless we’re 3-13 or 2-14 again, that we’ll be in position to get a top qb prospect (and thats what they all are, until they play, PROSPECTS). You guys that dont wanna trade draft picks are the same ones complaining about Rex Grossman after every game.
jfield1111 - February 2, 2012
And your willing to put your faith in a second tier prospect, Matt Flynn or Rex for another year?
That seems illogical to me
Bryan Black - February 2, 2012 via Android app
Funny how RGIII advocates aren't answering the question:
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
The same thing we saw with the Panthers last year. Top 5 offense.
iH8dallas - February 2, 2012
Except we have far less talent on offense.
see the problem?
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
Really.
Our talent on offense basically mirrors that of the Panthers.
iH8dallas - February 2, 2012
uh............not quite
Kalil and Gross are two of the better O-Linemen in the game.
Tiller56 - February 2, 2012
Ha.
Their OL alone is significantly ahead of ours.
They have a legit #1 WR.
We have…. Jabar Gaffney.
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
haha
great point.
But in all fairness, I think id we did bring in a WR like Bowe or Colston, and brought in at least one of: Myers, Grubbs, Nicks. We would be a better offensive overall than the Panthers, and prob(at least on paper), middle of the pack in the NFL.
Tiller56 - February 2, 2012
Perhaps
Then again, I really don’t like the idea of adding our best players via free agency.
it is very problematic.
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
How so?
Rekka - February 2, 2012
I think guys have questionable loyalty and work ethic when they come to town for their biggest pay day
I think we’ve been burned by that before.
I’m not against signing free agents. Or signing one or two big ones.
But there are a lot of intangibles that great teams need and I don’t think you can get them if your pillars of talent are here b/c they got a massive payday.
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
moderation is the way to go
but I truly do think those days are over
Rekka - February 2, 2012
but they're not
our days of signing assholes like Haynesworth or trading for Jason Taylor may be over.
But even if he’s the nicest guy in the league, a guy who just got his biggest pay day ever might have work ethic and loyalty issues. it’s human nature. and that’s fine.
that’s why I’m ok with a couple big free agents, but I’m not ok with them being the main plan.
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
Our best player though
and the face of this orginazation, would be RG3……….without a doubt.
Hank, Helu, TW, Paul, Davis could all become future weapons too, and they are all guys we drafted.
Tiller56 - February 2, 2012
All of those guys look like good young talent. But personally I would prefer adding another 1st and 2nd round draft pick to the mix. Some serious blue chip prospects.
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
And yet you advocate bringing in someone like Flynn through FA?
The most important position on the football field?
soup du jour - February 2, 2012
and
we don’t exactly have a Steve Smith
Tiller56 - February 2, 2012
Ask again after FA
Rekka - February 2, 2012
we're still chasing those free agent dreams huh?
Sad.
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
I have a bit more confidence in the FO after last years FA period
they were all solid, YOUNG, and motivated (this includes Chester at RG)
If they have another one this year where they pick up some more solid guys, then I say again, ask again after Free Agency
Rekka - February 2, 2012
Agree. But the guys we signed are good support players.
We need more ‘great young franchise guys’
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
Bowen, Coefield, and Wilson are far more than support players
Last year was defense; this year is offense.
Tiller56 - February 2, 2012
yes, they're more than support players, but they're not the players you build a team around.
finding those equivalent on offense, especially OL, is simply not as easy.
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
you build a team around a QB, not an OL
prc805 - February 2, 2012
thanks
was just going to say this
Tiller56 - February 2, 2012
you build a team around a handful of elite players
QB, LT, ideally a couple other players. Maybe WR or a great RB
Those players are added almost exclusively through the draft.
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
We have a LT
now its time to get a QB.
prc805 - February 2, 2012
yes - great draft pick
but whether he’s one of those guys is still unknown.
and he’s also the only potential franchise guy on offense right now.
you need more than a great LT & QB (and that is a best case scenario of course)
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
We have a right tackle playing left tackle
And underperforming
just my opinion, but I think we need a left tackle
Skins Fan '77 - February 2, 2012
I don't think we can do that yet to TW
He’s been getting better each year. He has some of the best feet and athleticism for a OT, that I’ve see in a long time. Way too early to give up on him at LT…………and actually, pretty unfair to do to Trent.
Tiller56 - February 2, 2012
Disagree
Bowen, Coefield, Rak and Kerrigan are all guys you build your team around. That’s why they were brought in
Tiller56 - February 2, 2012
you build a team WITH them, not AROUND them
unless we’re talking about a different Stephen Bowen.
And Rak & Kerrigan are precisely the kind of guys I want to DRAFT on offense – just like we did on defense
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
Ok,
so you want dynamic players, with good character, and great physical talent on offense.
This describes RG3 to a tee! It certainlt doesn’t fir the mold of a Reiff or DeCastro.
Tiller56 - February 2, 2012
Sadly, RGIII doesn’t come free.
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
I dont think
the question should be around RGIII talents. He is clearly an excellent prospect even though nothing is a 100% guarantee. To me the question, is what is the price to get him, and how does that effect how we improve other aspects of the team.
Redskin44 - February 2, 2012
ding ding ding.
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
When you say franchise guys
I assume you mean guys that are homegrown which I agree with, we do need more of those.
It’s (somewhat) easier to do with OL tho because those guys can really be found all over the draft as long as your scouting department is up to snuff whereas it’s harder to do with a QB once you get out of the top rounds.
Rekka - February 2, 2012
No question about it.
But by far the best way to find great young players is the draft. So if you trade away multiple important picks (1st & 2nd round) that is fewer great young prospects you get to add.
It’s an odds game.
Is RGIII worth dramatically reducing the odds of adding multiple great young players in the next few years?
yes. it is objectively true.
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
Unfortunately the only people that can answer that question are locked up in Ashburn somewhere. Personally, I’m ready to rip off this band-aid as much as it’s gonna hurt. I understand that others aren’t.
Rekka - February 2, 2012
at the end of the day, I trust Shanny to pick a QB
even if I don’t trust him for much else.
If he trades up for RGIII that shit better work otherwise he set the franchise back literally years.
can you imagine if RGIII busts or is even mediocre?
we’d be all but guaranteed to be terrible for at least another 2-4 years.
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
whats another 2-4 years
after 2 decades of garbage
prc805 - February 2, 2012
Lost season tickets for the owner.
iH8dallas - February 2, 2012
20% more garbage on that 20 years
no thanks.
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
Say we don't get RGIII
we’re still looking at a couple years of mediocrity without a QB. I’d rather take the chance that he will be a star to build our team around.
prc805 - February 2, 2012
yes, but mediocrity with young players getting better
is different than the mediocrity we’ve been watching for the past decade.
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
ok
I don’t know about you, but I don’t want mediocrity. I want excellence. That’s why we need a star QB and I’m willing to trade up to grab one
prc805 - February 2, 2012
Understood
But I think there’s a different path to excellence
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
ok
so what’s your plan?
prc805 - February 2, 2012
wait to draft a QB – ideally when we don’t have to trade away two firsts, one or two seconds, and more.
draft as many players in the first and second rounds as possible.
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
wait to draft a QB
and when is that going to be? Next year? Cause we’re probably going to have to trade up to get a QB then too.
prc805 - February 2, 2012
Ideally when we don’t have to trade away quite so much.
plenty of good QBs came in the middle or late first round
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
How long do you think Shanny has to keep waiting?
HogtieJim - February 2, 2012
as long as it takes to build a good franchise.
this is about the Redskins, not about Shanahan.
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
You get a new coach in and all those OL picks you want could easily be wasted because that coach doesn’t want to run a zone blocking scheme. Coaches that come into losing situations often rebuild the team they want and a lot of these Shanny rebuilding picks could be wasted with another coach.
HogtieJim - February 2, 2012
don’t over estimate the uniquness of zone blocking or zone blocking players.
a lot of players are good at both, and a lot of teams & coaches use zone blocking.
beyond that, what exactly are we arguing here?
if we don’t draft RGIII then Shanahan will leave?
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
If we don’t get a solution that can provide good QB play fairly quickly then yes Shanny won’t survive. How many QB options have the talent to provide that?
HogtieJim - February 2, 2012
So we should trade two drafts worth of high picks for QB so that Shanny keeps his job so that our amazing offensive line talent doesn’t have to potentially play a somewhat different blocking scheme?
No.
That is precisely the logic I disagree with.
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
We should want Shanny to keep his job because Snyder going back into the coaching search likely isn’t going to end well. The OL was just an example. It happens often where a new regime doesn’t trust the players of old regime. You want a organizational perspective and I understand that but it doesn’t exist with this owner.
HogtieJim - February 2, 2012
Great young Franchise guys like Robert Griffin III
A Franchise QB
Highspeed30 - February 2, 2012
You act like this plan has to work next year…. you draft an elite talent at QB to build a contender around for the next 10 years!!
HogtieJim - February 2, 2012
Like I said, your plan is to draft RGIII this year, then in 2014 (!) add some other prospects
really?
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
yup.
mmford10 - February 2, 2012
that was to hotgie
mmford10 - February 2, 2012
very well said
Tiller56 - February 2, 2012
this is what I don't
understand. We are willing to wait to build the team, but not willing to wait to get the QB
Redskin44 - February 2, 2012
Shouldn't the QB be an early piece in any rebuild?
Tiller56 - February 2, 2012
I don't think of that as a rule
I think you rebuild the team with as many good players as possible
Redskin44 - February 2, 2012
cause that question is not valid
your whole offense will be uplifted by having a guy like Griffin III, the OL stats will be better, the WR’s will be better and the running backs will be better, cause now defenses will have to worry about RG3 both with his arm and with his legs. those DE’s will not be able to just rush the passer like any QB, the WR’s wont have to wait for balls when they get behind the defense and the running backs will have cut back holes cause the LB have to stay home in case of play fakes, so this guy would impact the whole offense.
Highspeed30 - February 2, 2012
I would say
We could easily be a 9 win team. With sub-par QB play we were in some close games…with a change in mentality and more confidence in the man behind Center…this team could out-perform its critics!
We could finally stop playing down to a team that we should easily beat…because we have a talented leader at QB who leads the charge…and doesn’t throw defeating picks throught the game.
Legacee - February 2, 2012
^though out...sorry
Legacee - February 2, 2012
At least the draft is right around the corner
CptChaosSidekick - February 2, 2012
Watch the Skins get Manning in March then we can all be miserable and on the same page.
HogtieJim - February 2, 2012
HH would melt
CptChaosSidekick - February 2, 2012
I am not yet convinced
A trade will result in giving up more value than the worth of a that pick. Logically, it sets a franchise up to recover its’ loses. If a QB is an absolute must pick, then take the best available. If he is not up to par, then take the best next year. It’s like letting your bet ride four times to break even.
I get the whole trade up argument, but I don’t think it is practical. I’d love to see RGIII’s athleticism here like any other does.
TheSportsManager - February 2, 2012
Thanks for all your comments
That’s it for me, folks. I’ve really enjoyed hearing everyone’s feedback and wondering what the hell is being promoted on the left and right of the screen. (Hope I’m not the only one seeing this)
HTTR
mmford10 - February 2, 2012
Great post.
mkjo - February 2, 2012
I bet all of the don't trade up crowd are also the blowhards that thought Cam would suck.
iH8dallas - February 2, 2012
to be fair
I think most people thought he wouldn’t be successful
prc805 - February 2, 2012
Not me.
iH8dallas - February 2, 2012
Yea but you think everything or everyone "different" is good
ala John Beck
Parks Smith - February 2, 2012
Ouch
CptChaosSidekick - February 2, 2012
I trusted Shanny's judgement. I didn't think he would suicide the team. But he did.
iH8dallas - February 2, 2012
Wrong.
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
Cam is an above average QB
Statistically speaking he is middle of the pack in terms of QB rating, gets sacked more than most QBs, throws more INTs than most QBs and won 1 game more than Rex with 3 extra attempts. Cam is without doubt better than Rex and i would draft Cam Newton with the #6 draft pick 10 times out of 10. With that said RG3 is not Cam Newton and here is the kicker. Carolina drafted Cam Newton with 1 draft pick. You insane trade up people are talking about giving up probably next years first and this years 2nd. Thats the base level, it will probably be another pick or two in the later rounds. Now worth it for RG3.
Jeff Bernard - February 2, 2012
As a complete package
RG3 is a better prospect than Newton.
Cam is a physical freak, but RG3 is more well-rounded
Tiller56 - February 2, 2012
And as you know being a "prospect" doesn't win you games in the NFL
Jeff Bernard - February 2, 2012
No
but it makes for the realization of becoming good that much better
Tiller56 - February 2, 2012
RGIII
I really think he’ll be too brittle, especially if we don’t address our o-line. Also think his dual threat ability is being exaggerated a tad.
2up2down - February 2, 2012
Can we stop using this argument about the quarterback position?
The point is made over and over again that almost all the playoff quarterbacks are from the first round except for Tom Brady and Drew breeze. And from that fact people always try to make the jump that you must have a first-round quarterback to make the playoffs, always discounting the other top two quarterbacks that are not from the first round.
I would like to point out that just about every starting quarterback in the NFL is from the first round except for the three that made the playoffs that were not… if anything, this proves you have a better chance NOT having a first-round quarterback.
In other words, when more than 80% of the football teams have a first-round quarterback (including the Washington Redskins right now) but only 75% make the playoffs, but almost all of the teams who don’t have a first-round quarterback made the playoffs… doesn’t that indicate you should not drive a first-round quarterback? (Of course I do not believe this, just pointing out it is a lame argument)
People wail and lament about the Redskins ignoring the quarterback position. Truth be told, we have a first-round quarterback on the roster for almost all of the last 20 years.
It’s not when you pick the quarterback, it is about HOW you pick quarterback.
It is said 27 different ways in the last month or so, but we all agree… IF the coaching staff believes Griffin is the guy, and the front office believes that the cost is not prohibited, THEN take the man… if any of these prerequisites are not met, then don’t, it really is that simple.
Skins Fan '77 - February 2, 2012
Good points
But it’ll be first time Shanny has say on choosing one from the draft at this postion.
CptChaosSidekick - February 2, 2012
Not true
He had four overall pick in the first year he was here… he chose a tackle and traded two picks for an aging veteran.
One could argue that the best time to choose a quarterback was the first year he was here
Skins Fan '77 - February 2, 2012
There were no legit QB prospects
did you want Clausen?
prc805 - February 2, 2012
haha
Tiller56 - February 2, 2012
I think Sam Bradford was legit
And Shanahan supposedly wanted him badly, but we couldn’t get him.
How is that any different this year?
There were quite a few quarterbacks available last year, but we didn’t take them either
Skins Fan '77 - February 2, 2012
There was no way we were going to trade up to grab Bradford
This year, we have the opportunity to trade up for RGIII.
prc805 - February 2, 2012
You're wrong, Shanny tried very hard to get Bradford, the Rams wouldnt budge
StephanHart - February 2, 2012
yea, hence we werent going to grab Bradford.
Maybe I worded it poorly.
prc805 - February 2, 2012
BAM.
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
An important quote from mmford’s article describing exactly what you’re saying.
soup du jour - February 2, 2012
I see two MAJOR things this franchise has been lacking:
1.) Continuity and Stability – hopefully we have that now with the Shanny’s
2.) Excitement – can’t tell you the last time we have had this on offense. We could very well have the most boring offense in the league. RG3 would no doubt add the excitement factor to our team. Anyone that would not be excited about him, does not have a pulse.
Tiller56 - February 2, 2012
This is b.s.
You know what’s exciting? Winning.
You know what’s not that fun? Losing a lot with a high scoring team.
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
Well, we've been losing a lot with a low scoring team, soooooo.....
iH8dallas - February 2, 2012
so the answer is to lose with a high scoring team?
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
Honestly, that's retarded. I'm sorry.
How many high scoring teams are losers?
iH8dallas - February 2, 2012
Ummm... just this year alone... Panthers, Chargers Top 5
Parks Smith - February 2, 2012
Oud D is much better than those two teams.
iH8dallas - February 2, 2012
Ok? You said "that's retarded, how many high scoring teams are losers"
Answer: TWO alone in the Top 5
Your statement was completely false.
Our defense is very comparable to the Chargers in almost every category.
Parks Smith - February 2, 2012
How is my statement completely false?
Please enlighten me. I’ll even give you some time. And if you can’t come up with something just post Hines Ward crying again.
iH8dallas - February 2, 2012
lots of high scoring teams don’t win shit.
is this really up for debate?
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
yes
iH8dallas - February 2, 2012
I guess, by your logic, teams that score a low amount of points are dominant?
I don’t get it.
iH8dallas - February 2, 2012
whatever you say boss.
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
You said:
Just this year alone there are TWO, therefore you are incorrect in your assumption that smuts statement was retarded.
Parks Smith - February 2, 2012
Again, so are you saying we should try to score as few points as possible?
iH8dallas - February 2, 2012
Yep that's exactly what smuts and I were saying...
Parks Smith - February 2, 2012
they figured us out.
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
a high scoring team is going to win you more games
than a low scoring team. Yea you may lose some shootouts but at least we’re putting points on the board. We’ve been in the bottom of the league with PPG
prc805 - February 2, 2012
I don’t care about PPG
I care about wins.
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
How do you consistently get wins without QB talent?
HogtieJim - February 2, 2012
I don't know.
Ask someone who doesn’t think we need a QB.
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
You believe in the longer shots at QB then? QB talent is very thin and very raw after Griffin to me.
HogtieJim - February 2, 2012
No, that’s not why I’m against trading for RGIII
Try again.
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
and how do you win?
by scoring points. The more you score, the better chance you have of winning. It’s kinda simple actually
prc805 - February 2, 2012
your acting like our defense is really bad
if we get a guy that can make every1 on the offense better and we score alot of points because of him. our poor season will be over. we have had good D over the past team years but we never had any offense.
munson21502 - February 2, 2012
How is it BS
it’s 100% true! No way we are winning if we keep putting these terrible QB’s on the field.
Tiller56 - February 2, 2012
You don’t win consistently in the NFL without getting quality QB play.
HogtieJim - February 2, 2012
You don't win in the NFL by mortgaging your future either
Parks Smith - February 2, 2012
But its not mortgaging your future if the QB pans out.
HogtieJim - February 2, 2012
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
Are you more comfortable
IF – Tannehill, Flynn, Foles, Weeden etc. pan out
OR
IF – RG3 pans out
because they are all unknowns.
Tiller56 - February 2, 2012
what?
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
everything is a if. There are risks all around.
HogtieJim - February 2, 2012
Yup, which is why you have to increase your odds whenever you can.
ie. draft as many young players as possible.
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
OR
When in need of a franchise QB, get one of the best one avaliable.
Tiller56 - February 2, 2012
yes - you've correctly identified the two sides to this discussion.
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
You never answered my question above
as to who you would be more comfortable with.
Tiller56 - February 2, 2012
do I think those guys are better prospects than RGIII?
what do you think?
that’s a useless way to frame the debate.
you’re quite aware of what I’m arguing.
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
You and I both know we need a QB
where we get him is the question. So I think the question I posed to you is a very valid one. Any unporven QB is a risk. Where, and with whom do you fell more comfortable taking that risk?
I’m not against getting more quality linemen. I just realize we have a desperate need for a QB, and seeing that the avaliable guys are all risks, I’d rather risk my future on the guy with the greatest skill set, who fits our offense perfectly.
Tiller56 - February 2, 2012
you’re leaving out a key part of the equation of which position to draft.
in fact, it is THE part on which we disagree.
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
Tiller56
I think that most of these comments are directed at the fact CLE has more ammo to trade up, not to mention they are in the AFC and the Big Cat is also pretty good at determining QB talent (so if he sees RG3 as the Franchise QB, he will outbid us). It is hard to argue this team does not need a QB or should not spend draft picks taking a QB. Most likely wont happen with RG3.
1footballguru - February 2, 2012
I did a post on the tendencies of Holmgren
and his tendencies are certainly not to move up 2 spots, and give up more than we could offer to do so. He, unlike many GM’s, puts a rare premuim on draft picks. Also, that team has more holes than we do.
Tiller56 - February 2, 2012
You may be right, but most of us believe that he would
break tendencies if he feels strongly about RG3 being a franchise QB. He would still have his entire draft next year to go back to trading down. Let’s hope we are wrong and we can stay at 6 and draft RG3 or move up without CLE competing.
1footballguru - February 2, 2012
We are not getting RG3 at 6
we’ll have to move up to 2 or 3. I just feel Holmgren won’t move up at all. If somehow, RG3 fell to him at 4, he’d prob take him, but I see no way he moves up two spots, and gives up what some people here are thinking, when it’s totally out of his nature to do so.
This man COVETS draft picks. He’s not going to do all that wheeling and dealing from last year, just to give them away this year. He’ll grab a veteran QB befor he does that………….it’s just his way.
Tiller56 - February 2, 2012
I totally agree
I been saying this not because i am a Redskins fan but it just dont make sense for him to do that, when if The Redskins do move up he is pretty much guaranteed Blackmon a weapon for McCoy and the veteran that he will bring in maybe Jason Campbell or Matt Flynn
Highspeed30 - February 2, 2012
+1, I even shed a tear
Parks Smith - February 2, 2012
So you admitting
we haven’t been exciting in years
Tiller56 - February 2, 2012
As someone else said
This football team IS exciting, it just doesn’t win very often.
We are always on the edge of our seats wondering how we will snatch defeat from victory
Skins Fan '77 - February 2, 2012
Or win against playoff teams and lose to teams we should beat!
1footballguru - February 2, 2012
haha
nicely done ’77
Tiller56 - February 2, 2012
Otto Graham wanted to have exciting teams
“But I’d rather risk losing some games by say 35-28 and have the fans up off their seats with excitement. I think the players would have more fun, too,” http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/sports/redskins/longterm/1997/history/allart/66otto.htm
Jefferson1935 - February 2, 2012
He'd be exciting
If he can stay on the field. Again, speaking for myself, I think he’ll break down here.
2up2down - February 2, 2012
Why?
Rekka - February 2, 2012
Slender frame, the way he plays the game, and fairly significant injuries in college. I don’t like the Cam parallels, Cam is built like a tank and was very elusive. To which RGIII is not.
2up2down - February 2, 2012
6'2 220 pounds, or roughly the size of a starting NFL running back.
Yeah, a glass doll.
iH8dallas - February 2, 2012
and by roughly the size you mean 3-4 inches taller
Jeff Bernard - February 2, 2012
That's pretty much what roughly means, yeah.
iH8dallas - February 2, 2012
Roughly is 4 inches?
So i am “roughly” the same same as Michael Jordan and Doug Flutie. Interesting.
Jeff Bernard - February 2, 2012
And my penis is "roughly" the same size as Jabar Gaffney's.
iH8dallas - February 2, 2012
How do you know how big Jabar Gaffney's penis is?
Jeff Bernard - February 2, 2012
FOX zoomed in on it during the Panthers game.
It was impressive.
iH8dallas - February 2, 2012
please, no more shots of j-gaf
We all know…
mkjo - February 2, 2012
really?
Do we have to go here? again?
Redskin44 - February 2, 2012
How in the hell is he slender?
he’s 6’ 2". and 220 lbs. That is not slender.
Kellen Moore is slender
Tiller56 - February 2, 2012
He has a small frame, its rather obvious. Even the pundits say as much, they even say his height is a tad short. We won’t even know anything official until the pro days.
The way he plays screams injury waiting to happen, especially considering he doesn’t slide after runs and he is not very elusive. Great straight line speed for sure.
2up2down - February 2, 2012
Well, if the "pundits" say it!
iH8dallas - February 2, 2012
My mistake
Posters on forums have more credibility!
2up2down - February 2, 2012
"Pundits" are nothing more than posters on forums, except their forum is ESPN.
iH8dallas - February 2, 2012
Yeah
and they’ve been around the game much longer, analyzed film much longer, and evaluated talent much longer. They even have insights from players/personnel directly involved in the game.
2up2down - February 2, 2012
If his height was 6'
I’d be worried. But he’s the same size as Aaron Rodgers. I see nothing wrong with that.
Tiller56 - February 2, 2012
Its a subjective evaluation I suppose
Rodgers and RGIII may be listed at roughly the same size, but its pretty clear Rodgers has a bigger build, “bigger boned” if you will.
2up2down - February 2, 2012
maybe Rodgers is more fleshy
where RG3 is stacked with lean muscle mass. Muscle does weigh more than fat(not saying Rodgers is fat).
Tiller56 - February 2, 2012
Most QB's are a bit pudgy
Brady, Rodgers, Big Ben, Rivers, Cutler, etc. Muscle=durability, how has LaRon held up?
2up2down - February 2, 2012
A bit pudgy?
How is Rivers or Brady a bit pudgy?
iH8dallas - February 2, 2012
this is pudgy
mkjo - February 2, 2012
Jeez
I’m not saying they’re Fat Albert or anything. There not physical specimens that people are leading RGIII to be, yet they’ve held up well.
2up2down - February 2, 2012
Just messin around...
mkjo - February 2, 2012
I know, btw:
2up2down - February 2, 2012
I'd say scrawny more than pudgy...
mkjo - February 2, 2012
hard to believe thats getting giselle
Redskin44 - February 2, 2012
This guy is smart
People keep telling us he is an “Olympic Caliber” runner but in terms of football speed he isn’t anything mind blowing. He is very fast in the open field but his complete stop to 4 yards away time is nothing compared to Vick. He takes a lot of hits in college and his frame is slender regardless of his official measurements.
Jeff Bernard - February 2, 2012
But Griffin's not a run first QB like Vick is
he’s a passer that has the good ability to run, and you really don’t think Shanny isn’t gonna get him even MORE pocket ready than he is do you?
Rekka - February 2, 2012
Here is a fun fact
In their final years at college Michael Vick ran the ball 75 times less than RG3
Jeff Bernard - February 2, 2012
meant to say final year
Singular
Jeff Bernard - February 2, 2012
Vick didn't opperate out of a spread read offense though
Tiller56 - February 2, 2012
Why is Mike Vick's decade+ old college career relevant?
iH8dallas - February 2, 2012
talking about stature vs. playing mentality I think
but they’re two completely different players so I’m not entirely sure
Rekka - February 2, 2012
so we're going off the one year?
Are there any other interesting factoids to go along with that?
Pass attempts/completions in their final year, supporting cast that could explain why there were more or less rushing attempts?
Rekka - February 2, 2012
I'm not going off anything
Baylor runs 3 times the number of plays at VT did. Its just a fact that RG3 ran the ball more than Vick in college. What he will do in the NFL is unknown. He isn’t going to have wideouts who are running by the entire defense like he did in college so we have no clue what time of player he will be. We know he isn’t going to be in shotgun every single play like he was in college. Maybe his NFL coach makes him more drop back only or makes him run more. Nobody knows what he will do in the NFL when a play breaks down.
Jeff Bernard - February 2, 2012
Speaking of Vick
He’s listed as smaller than RGIII, certainly doesn’t look it.
2up2down - February 2, 2012
because television gives an accurate potrayal of what a person looks like in real life?
Rekka - February 2, 2012
Measurements
Don’t give a finite perspective either. I’m 5’11" 170, my friends the same. Wouldn’t know it if we were side-by-side.
2up2down - February 2, 2012
Yep
Two people can be exactly the same height and weight and look nothing alike in terms of their frames.
Jeff Bernard - February 2, 2012
which is true
but JCamp wasn’t exactly built like a LB but he could take some hits (dude is a tall SOB tho, came into Best Buy one day and had some people’s neck hurting)
Rekka - February 2, 2012
If they cant catch you that is pretty elusive
you elude people by running past them and if they cant catch you that is pretty elusive
Highspeed30 - February 2, 2012
Wide open running lanes in the NFL don't happen quite as often as they do in the Big 12
Jeff Bernard - February 2, 2012
Actually
since the NFl is a passing league, the running lanes could actually be greater, for a QB with the ability to scramble. Teams that played Baylor, knew they ran the spread option, so they game-planned for the run, and often had a spy on RG3…………..and they still couldn’t stop him.
Tiller56 - February 2, 2012
Have you've seen him in college?
Or our you just looking at his 40 speed?
2up2down - February 2, 2012
He's had a torn ACL and a consussion
ACL is NOT uncommon at all in this sport and neither (unfortunately) are concussions. Even coming out of college
Rekka - February 2, 2012
I had 5 concussions
and I was not a QB, RB or WR. My guess is every NFL player(or at least the majority of them), have had some degree of a concussion.
Tiller56 - February 2, 2012
Its certainly worth noting
If your going to give up multiple picks for that sort of player. The year Jahvid Best came out I was weary and now he can barely stay conscious on plays.
2up2down - February 2, 2012
Best is just a different animal altogether
2 concussions in 2 weeks and foot and elbow surgeries? That’s just insane
Rekka - February 2, 2012
Exactly. And how we have picked our QB’s has been poor. We have reached on guys in the 1st, that should have clearly been mid-second round guys.
Maybe it’s time we finally reached on that guy who’s actually worth reaching for.
Tiller56 - February 2, 2012
we actually never hit on our first pick, no matter the position
Two glaring exceptions… Darrell Green and Chris Samuels.
Every other player has underperformed if my memory serves
Skins Fan '77 - February 2, 2012
Lavar and Champ left but your point remains
Check out the list if you’re feeling masochistic today
Rekka - February 2, 2012
From 1980–2007, only 19 first rounders (others were traded away)
Of those 19, we only got production out of four… I say we suck
Skins Fan '77 - February 2, 2012
Rod Gardner!! Remember him????
mmford10 - February 2, 2012
I try not to...
Rekka - February 2, 2012
Even worse
remeber that tackle Johnson from Penn state (sorry Tiller). I dont think the guy ever played a down
Redskin44 - February 2, 2012
Orakpo, Kerrigan, Taylor
would all beg to differ
Tiller56 - February 2, 2012
Too early to tell on the first two players
The third is not on this team (not his/our fault) but the point remains… when we choose a good player, they very rarely stay past the rookie contract.
More often than not, we choose poorly
Skins Fan '77 - February 2, 2012
I think, even at this early stage
we can all agree that Kerrigan is not going to bust.
Tiller56 - February 2, 2012
I think you misunderstood me
I think all three of those are good players and we have chosen other good players before… just for whatever reason, we never get more than one contract out of them.
Skins Fan '77 - February 2, 2012
I’d say a lot of that is because we lose the coaches that picked them. New guys come in and want their own type of player. Same thing will happen if Shanny gets fired.
HogtieJim - February 2, 2012
sounds about right
Rekka - February 2, 2012
Redskins first Rd QB's since 94
1994 – Heath Shuler #3 pick in 1st Rd(4 largest bust in NFL drafting history, ESPN)
1998 – Patrick Ramsey, 32nd Pick in 1st Rd, another bust (lack of talent surrounding him)
2006 – JC, 25th pick in 1st Rd, average QB with 3 different Off Coordinators.
We have been drafting QB’s and all approaches have failed us so far, not saying we give up on this approach, but we can’t say as an organization that we have not tried very hard to fill this need and therefore need to try something different, ie, trade up to get a QB.
Lastly, if RG3 is the real deal and I think he is, CLE will beat us all day long for a trade up scenario and that is why most of us believe that a more realistic option is picking at number 6 or trading back. We are only in the 2nd year of our rebuilding process (first year was not rebuilding in the traditional sense of drafting players and developing them)
1footballguru - February 2, 2012
How is this approach diff than Vinny's?
Put all your chips on one spot on the wheel and keep your fingers crossed.
We now believe building a team is a numbers game of more picks, better chance to find good players. How it giving picks for less players the best approach or diff than the last decade that got us into this mess? RGIII would be good but he won’t be the top pick this year (Luck), wouldn’t have been the top pick last year (Newton) and not the top the year before (Bradford), the assumption he will be elite weighs heavy on your argument.
Plus, RGIII is Cleveland’s if they want him. Skins would have to outbid a team with 2, 1st Round picks this year. They have nothing that can trump that. If Cleveland wants him, he’s theirs. If not, we get him from the Vikes at #3.
44ever - February 2, 2012
great analogy.
just b/c Shanny isn’t as childlike and simple-minded as Vinny, doesn’t mean this plan is a good idea.
smutsboy1 - February 2, 2012
Agreed, CLE holds two aces and we hold two Kings, in poker terms all those wanting RG3 with a trade up are screwed.
1footballguru - February 2, 2012
how many people are just going to fold pocket KK's??
there are still a flop to consider, and that is Free agency. cause as you know a lot can change on the Flop
Highspeed30 - February 2, 2012
Not my point, most people play pocket Kings but lose to Pocket Ace's...I want RG3, just being realistic
1footballguru - February 2, 2012
If you try and fail its different than not making the effort at all.
HogtieJim - February 2, 2012
So Vinny was awesome then?
44ever - February 2, 2012
Vinny didn't try and fail
he just didn’t make an effort. He thought throwing money at someone was the answer to everything
Rekka - February 2, 2012
I think we try and ultimately fail, just being realistic, unfortunately
1footballguru - February 2, 2012
I am just saying it is a long way to that river
Highspeed30 - February 2, 2012
This was a concern of mine as well...
If we short ourselves on high draft picks. How do we fill the unexpected holes we encounter every year that we were previously solid at? Next year, when we don’t have a LT or MLB hypothetically. It seems like the answer is free agency or lucky mid level+ draftees. Its seems too reminiscent of the habits we were begging to break free from less than a year ago. I feel it ultimately opens the door for the desperate high paid and older FA acquisitions.
A long term conservative plan is more likely to produce long term results. I want a dynasty again, not a one year wonder.
TheSportsManager - February 2, 2012
Best post of the offseason.
Anybody that wants to trade back or take a lineman with that first pick hasn’t been watching this team lately. 08 we traded back for picks, it did nothing. Two years ago we took TW fourth overall, it did nothing. We have to get this QB, he’s an elite QB and you can’t pass that up.
Chillz - February 2, 2012 via mobile
You know what I hope we do?
Suck next year and go 3-13, then the year after 2-14, until eventually we go 0-16. Then we are guaranteed the first pick and don’t have to trade up. #winning
iH8dallas - February 2, 2012
yeah me too because trading up is the only way the Patriots, Packers or Steelers ever won a Super Bowl
Jeff Bernard - February 2, 2012
They haven't traded up but the all have elite Qbs... Wouldn't you want an elite Qb?? Trading up is a way we can get one.
Chillz - February 2, 2012
Oh its that simple. We just trade up and get one. I wonder why all the other teams just don't do that?
Jeff Bernard - February 2, 2012
but our needs are more than just an elite qb
Redskin44 - February 2, 2012
Give me another year like last year
Strong FA class with 11plus draft picks and I am happy…cherry on top would be getting another starter in FA at QB, does not need to be an all world type of guy, just someone who can manage the game without Turnovers.
1footballguru - February 2, 2012
+1
Redskin44 - February 2, 2012
The elite Qb makes up for a lot of deficiencis...
He noted the Packers O.Line a few years ago, The New England Def, The Colts whole team this year… The Elite QB hides all that and makes the team good and competitive.
@Jeff Benard- What are you talking about?? Who said it’s simple? We know the cost and I’m saying pay it. Teams don’t trade up for Qbs all the time. Why can’t we do it? We traded up in 05 for JC, we’re saying do it now b/c this kid is an talent that doesn’t come out every year.
Chillz - February 2, 2012
If we go 3-13 next year
We’ll likely have our choice between Tyler Wilson, Landry Jones, and maybe Tyler Bray. Possibly another QB who will come out of nowhere as well. If we address our O-line and WR’s, that QB could come into a good situation.
Of course I’m not advocating tanking.
2up2down - February 2, 2012
If we go 3-13 we will have a new coach, new system, and a(nother) fresh new start. At least we are familiar with this territory.
whydoIcare - February 2, 2012
I was playing off his hypothetical and trading up theory.
I do find it interesting that in the past so many Skins fans have clamored for a rebuild and now that were rebuilding, they lack the patience. Trying to find shortcuts and whatnot. Its going to be process to to recoup the lost draft picks we could of had.
2up2down - February 2, 2012
Agreed, we are only in Year 2 of the rebuild and already people want to mortgage the future.
1footballguru - February 2, 2012
I'm not yet on the bandwagon...
but curious what you think about this scenario:
Door #1 Riley Reif, Brandon Weeden, and a first round pick
Door #2 RG III
I think this puts realistic names to a trade over just looking at a number. I still differ in the consequences of door #2 than most it seems.
TheSportsManager - February 2, 2012
door # 2 please
cause where are you gonna get a number 1 pick from??? and Weeden is a waste of a pick say a 3rd rd pick and if you trade back you aint gonna get Reiff anyway
Highspeed30 - February 2, 2012
I was matching the assumption some have made: Two #1’s and a 2 for the move up. I was referring to our 2013 pick we wouldn’t trade too. Yes, I think Weeden would be a half round reach there, but it would provide an accurate and interesting QB prospect.
TheSportsManager - February 2, 2012
rather, door 1 is no trade. #6, #39 and our 2013 1st rounder
TheSportsManager - February 2, 2012
i still take door #2 cause i value quality and quality at QB more than any other position because it is much harder to find a quality franchise QB in later rounds
than it is finding OL, DL, DB, LB,RB TE, WR all other positions can be filled better in the later rounds. I am a draft guy so i know a lot of the prospects and there is a lot of sleeper guys especially WR, and OL you can get guys to fit your zone blocking scheme later in the 4th and beyond. If you trade you 2nd this year and swap 1st that is only 1 less draft pick for the 2012 draft class and probably 2 less next year a 1st and 3rd or 4th. you can still work the draft to find players you like and develop them into starters
Highspeed30 - February 2, 2012
When was the last time we had a QB that a team had to specifically gameplan for?
We are so close to drafting an elite QB that it would seem profoundly dumb to not make the move.
When you have a guy with his speed and arm strength, defenses have to gameplan for him which creates more schemes and alternatives to press on the opposing teams. I also like his leadership and body language on the field. Chances that he becomes a bust seem very slim to me.
xocnodnarb - February 2, 2012
I agree he is legit, just don't see us having the ammo to beat CLE for the trade up and I don't have a problem going all in after one more year of a rebuild
1footballguru - February 2, 2012
The "rebuild" has to include a Qb sooner or later. Rebuild with Rex Grossman in the equation just doesn't add up.
Chillz - February 2, 2012
I think we try and fail to get RG3, then we select a QB later in the draft and go all-in next year
I do not want Rex behind Center next year either, just stating what I believe will end up happening and would be fine with another rebuild year thru draft and smart FA plan.
1footballguru - February 2, 2012
Yea of course if we don't get him stick to what we've been doing, but if we can get him push the chips to the middle and go all in!!
Chillz - February 2, 2012
That's what I said with the try but don't get him, we have a short stack of chips compared to CLE
They have two first rd picks this year, can offer higher picks in later rounds this year and if push comes to shove, can offer a 2nd next year. Not to mention the fact that STL really wants either Blackmon/Kalil and would have a much better chance at getting them at 4 then pick 6. What is all in for you, how many picks this year and next?
1footballguru - February 2, 2012
I'm sorry Guru you did say exactly that.. I'm with you brother!!!
Chillz - February 2, 2012
No problem, RG3 is a beast and would be a great Redskin, will keep my fingers crossed, but wont blame the skins if they get outbid.
1footballguru - February 2, 2012
+1
Chillz - February 2, 2012
Personally
I don’t consider RGIII “elite,” I reserve that label only for Luck.
I will say on the record, I’m not opposed to trading up for RGIII. If and only if, we have to give up draft picks this year. Which I highly doubt.
2up2down - February 2, 2012
It doesn’t really matter what anyone wants. RG3 will be a Redskins next season. Sorry bout your luck haters!
BSNUFFER10 - February 2, 2012
WE are not hating, and it would be great if we would get RG3, just don't think we beat out CLE for a trade up
Given that is my belief, I am happy with another year of rebuild as long as it looks similar to last year, lots of draft picks and a strong FA class. Not hating, just being realistic.
1footballguru - February 2, 2012
your not going to be happy. We might have 4-5 picks this year. Sorry bud! He’s coming and its going to cost draft picks
BSNUFFER10 - February 2, 2012
Not certain Cleveland will trade up.
Staying at #4 is more likely and if he falls to them then I’m sure they have to take him. Clearly would be an upgrade but Cleveland has issues all over that roster that can’t be ignored. At least we do have a solid young foundation.
I see them taking Richardson.
xocnodnarb - February 2, 2012
If RG3 is gone of course. Which is most probable.
xocnodnarb - February 2, 2012
IF after all the analysis RG3 is determined to be a can't miss QB, Mike Holmgren will pay to move up.
I would love it if they did pass on the move up, but doubt he comes to that conclusion after reviewing the tape and doing the one on one interview with RG3. They have the extra picks and can get away with keeping almost all of their draft picks next year.
1footballguru - February 2, 2012
Most are forgetting the fact that it will cost Cleveland more to move up
if they were to trade up the Browns only need to move 2 spots, so if they are going to beat a projected offer from the Redskins they would have to grossly overpay cause they moving just 2 spots. I highly doubt the Browns would include any picks next year cause they Rams will say you have another 1st this year so they would want that pick anyway if the Redskins offer 2012 1st, 2nd, and 2013 1st and 3rd the Browns would have to offer at least both 2012 1st #4, #22, and 2nd #37 and possibly 4th just to move up 2 spots. That does not make any sense when you will be able to upgrade with the best WR in the draft Blackmon if we jump ahead or they could trade the Blackmon pick just makes more sense
Highspeed30 - February 2, 2012
True, but,
Trading two 1st this year and a 2nd or/NOT AND 3rd this year would beat the best redskins offer. While it would be overpaying for the move up, it would not be overpaying for a Franchise QB given you have the extra picks from last years move and all your picks next year to continue to build your team.
1footballguru - February 2, 2012
another point
the move to 4th to 2nd pick is 800 Pts, CLE 2nd first pick is only worth 760 Pts, 40 shy of normal fair value, you add their third 250 Pts and they are only overpaying by 110 Pts, not much given they are getting a franchise QB and competing for the pick.
1footballguru - February 2, 2012
Forget the points
They’re outdated and useless.
tuckwell - February 2, 2012 via iPhone app
Agreed they are outdated, but we only have one thing to go on, And,
I was responding to comment that CLE would not pay that much to move up, if the chart goes higher in PT value then my case of them not overpaying gets even stronger.
1footballguru - February 2, 2012
Let's not act like Cleveland dont have any needs
they got picks to fill some of their needs i dont think Holmgren and Heckert stockpiled all them picks to give them away to the Rams. And they still got a young guy in McCoy that the jury is still out on, maybe they feel if he had more weapons like a Blackmon or a Richardson that he would be more successful, that would be too high of a price to play IMO, if i was the Browns if he fell to me i would grab him but if the cost is both my 1st, my 2nd and a 4th i would pass cause i could still fill a MAJOR need with Blackmon.
Highspeed30 - February 2, 2012
Never said CLE doesn't have needs
Just saying an offer of two 1st and a 3rd this year would beat most skins offers and CLE would still have their 2nd this year, all other picks from 4th on down and the full draft next year. CLE sucks and could decide to go your route, but, IF they decide RG3 is their franchise guy, we lose out, unfortunately.
1footballguru - February 2, 2012
they would have to give up that 2nd rd pick this year too IMO
they will probably keep the 3rd this year and mybe throw in a 4th, but i am saying either way it is way too much to move up just 2 spots when you got other options at QB and are guaranteed the #1 WR in the draft and maybe get that RT you need like Mike Adams @#22 and get a DE in the 2nd rd. If the Redskins was in the 4 spot i would not look to trade up cause i know I got Blackmon coming to me i could either draft him or trade back and might get a 2nd rd pick this year and 2013 1st next year.
Highspeed30 - February 2, 2012
We have a number of holes to fill too, if CLE does not trade up, our offer goes down and we get RG3 and we both are happy.
This post states that RG3 is a top 5 QB potential so we are predicting that CLE would also be interested in that kind of prospect, they did move down last year to acquire the extra first this year as well as a number of other picks and the trade value chart has two first with a 3rd not being that much of a premium.
1footballguru - February 2, 2012
god I loved this post
SCSkin21 - February 2, 2012
This is going to be one hell of an offseason.
I don’t think I’ve ever been this excited to see what we are going to do. We have smart people on board to make decisions and at this point we are heading in the right direction and I see a lot of promise in the near future. Just HAVE to get a good QB for everything to fall in place.
xocnodnarb - February 2, 2012
analytical points
1. RGIII is not guaranteed to hit in the show. He could be the next Heath Shuler.
2. I think the “by any means” argument is getting overdone and trite. We had another thread where the trade cost was put up and people complained that it was unfair to list it so high a cost. What would be MUCH more insightful would be to give these two pieces of info/idea:
A. What do you think WILL be required to do the trade? IOW, what do you think the market will drive? (including other teams, etc.)
B. How high would YOU go in a bidding war. Don’t say “anything” unless you really mean it. Give a fair analysis. Is it two 1s? 1, 2, 3 both years? Two years of entire drafts? What?
TCO - February 2, 2012
My guess, and this is a big fat guess would be
Answer A :
1st this year, 2nd this year, 4th this year
and
1st next year…maybe add another late pick like 5th.
Having said that, even if we offer that, CLE can trump us with Two 1st this year, 3rd this year and 3rd next year. If Holmgren feels RG3 is the franchise QB we are screwed.
B) I would trade 1st this year, 3rd this year and 1st next year.
1footballguru - February 2, 2012
so you think the market will easily be higher than your walk away price?
Thanks for playing along.
I think more people saying “do anything” need to say what their walk away would be. When they say “do anything” on the one hand, and then on the other hand “it won’t be that expensive”, they are talking out of both sides of mouth.
Personally, my walkaway is probably fair value plus 10% (IOW 2600 points plus 260). And I think the market will demand more. I actually feel a little skeptical going even to 10% over fair value, but have gotten sucked into the hype and our “need”.
All that said, if we could get Peyton, I would do that first. RGIII may be the way better long term bet, but I am win now. And Peyton is football smarter.
TCO - February 2, 2012
Happy to play along and yes, I believe we lose out on getting RG3.
1footballguru - February 2, 2012
another point, if we have similar success in the draft/FA as last year.
I would be willing to overpay to get our QB of the future next year due to the fact we would have a much better supporting cast. Manning is a long shot given his health, but if healthy, would be a better option then anything we have or any other FA. Still would draft a QB next year and lower rd this year if we get Manning.
1footballguru - February 2, 2012
Even if we got Manning I'd still draft a top QB this year.
Considering his health I’d say Manning is quite fragile at this point in his career. No one knows how the nerves in his neck will do after taking hits. What would be the difference in getting a QB this year than next year? Bonus if he gets two and possibly three years under Manning.
xocnodnarb - February 2, 2012
If you sign Manning
You don’t draft a top QB this year. You use your picks to give him protection and weapons, you sign RWayne as a security blanket and you see how the year goes.
tuckwell - February 2, 2012 via iPhone app
you CAN NOT say what the market will be until after free agency
taking a guess at what teams may be bidding right now is foolish. cause FREE AGENCY will dictate which teams still need or want a QB for instance if Flynn go to Miami which is probable that is one less team looking for a QB, and if Cleveland sign a guy like Jason Campbell then i dont think they would still be in the market to get RGIII. And The Redskins move will tell you which way the team is leaning come draft time. but a fair value deal is more than likely 2012 1st,2nd, 2013 1st and 3rd or 4th. and that is a little on the high side compared to what i heard some former GM’s said like Casserly, and Reese
Highspeed30 - February 2, 2012
Maybe you are right…that you can’t estimate what the bidding will go to. But honestly argying that it will be cheap or expensive is kind of missing the point. A better question is how high would YOU GO. If you need to.
I’ve been involved in corporate M&A and it really, really sucks when you have done a lot of work and lose out on an auction. But you really need to determine ahead of time what your walkaway price is and then stick to it. Don’t go over it if the bidding goes there (and it may sometimes). And also don’t be unwilling to go all the way up to it (sure offer 10-20% less to start), but be realisting about how much you value something so you are willing to compete in the auction.
Again: saying “I would do anything” along with “it will be cheap”, makes no sense. What you really mean is I would do it if I can get fair value. Fine, then.
TCO - February 2, 2012
+1
1footballguru - February 2, 2012
I would like to have RGIII
Just for the excitement factor. I think we’ll be stuck sitting at 6. I doubt anyone will trade up to our spot and I don’t feel like we will be trading up ourselves.
A lot of will shake down during FA and we’ll get a clear picture on who will be looking to draft a qb. I just hope to god we do not get manning. That’s the only move that would have me pissed. I would rather stay with grossman another year. Yeah, i said it.
But don’t pretend like everyone on these forums would not be giddy with excitement if we moved up. Okay not everyone, there’s some here that will shi.t all over a puppy if it was picked by shanahan.
Al_CaPWNED - February 2, 2012
We would be excited if we moved up and got RG3, I know I would, just saying, like you said, it most likely wont happen.
1footballguru - February 2, 2012
I agree
I’ll be even more relaxed once some other sucker falls for manning.
Al_CaPWNED - February 2, 2012
I tend to agree with you, but, if Manning is completely healthy, most people believe he is an upgrade over Rex
him being healthy is a big IF and it does not stop me from picking QB’s in the draft this year and/or next year.
1footballguru - February 2, 2012
Interesting note
It’s probably been mentioned somewhere in this enormous thread, but I forgot that Cleveland has 2 first rounders in this year’s draft.
Have to think they’re in driver’s seat for Griffin if they want him. Let’s hope they’re enamored with Justin Blackmon?
mmford10 - February 2, 2012
Does it matter? Serious question
Are 2 first round picks..2 first round picks? Meaning if Browns give 2 & Skins do but one of the draft picks is next year, would that matter?
CptChaosSidekick - February 2, 2012
The sooner a coach can improve his team
the better. I’d imagine the Rams would love those two 1st’s this year. I just don’t see Holmgren giving them up simply to move up two spots. It’s just not his way.
Tiller56 - February 2, 2012
great post couldn't agree more
what is the use of drafting a great o-line if they don’t have a qb to protect. I’d much rather build a team around an ELITE qb like RG3 than build a line and let them protect Rex so he can throw it to the other team or take a gamble on a 3rd rounder this year.
So what if Griffin has to use his ridiculous speed to evade some blitzes this year, spend the rest of this and next offseason building around him and have a good foundation PLUS a good quarterback
bgsmith4 - February 2, 2012
THIS POST>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Thank You for writing this!!! I’m fine with getting RG3 because we need someone who we can grow with
Fresh92 - February 2, 2012
Very well thought out and written post
travisjh86 - February 2, 2012
Objective Definition of "Franchise QB"
Should the definition hold up to historical scrutiny?
Would the definition define Eli, for example, as Franchise or not?
Belly Kilmer - February 4, 2012
Elite QBs
The group of QBs the press and fans define as “elite” changes each season, depending entirely on each team’s performance.
Sure, Peyton, Brees and Brady are mentioned every year, but after them the QBs who are considered elite changes every season depending on each team’s W-L record. Peyton is a once in a lifetime NFL QB and Brees and Brady, while excellent, benefit greatly from excellent protection, or at least according to John Madden they do.
When Eli was throwing more picks than any other QB in the league last season, and turned the ball over 32 times on picks and fumbles fans and the press were not calling Eli “elite.” Same goes for ’07 when Eli had 33 turnovers.
Same goes for this season when the Giants were 7-7. Just a few weeks ago in week 15 when the Skins blew out the Giants 23-to-10 Eli threw 0 TDs and 3 picks. His failure to have a ’clutch performance" doomed the Giants chances of making the playoffs, or so it seemed. NOBODY was calling Eli an “elite QB.” Same goes for week 1 this season when Grossman threw for over 300 yards and 2 TDs while Eli was busy throwing 0 TDs, a pick and fumbling the ball (recovered by Giants.)
People mention Roethlisberger as an elite QB" Is it Ben or is it his O line and the TEAM’s performance each season? When the Steelers won that ‘05-’06 Super Bowl Ben threw 0 TDs, 2 interceptions and only completed 9 passes all day. Do the fans and press remember it this way? Ben followed that performance by turning the ball over 28 times the very next season. Was it really all Roethlisberger’s fault of did his offensive teammates and team as a whole have more to do with it?)
Kurt Warner is often mentioned as one of the best of all time. None of us were calling Kurt Warner elite the FIVE SEASONS from ‘02 to ’06 when Kurt’s W-L record was 8-23, he threw 27 TDs versus 30 interceptions and fumbled the ball an astonishing 45 times. (That’s 27 TDs to 75 turnovers.)
The wolf is only as strong as the pack. If it were the other way we’d have seen Brees or Rodgers in the Super Bowl. Instead we watched the Alex Smith led ‘Niners eliminate Brees and the Saints. (We also witnessed Roethlisberger achieve a QB rating of 76 against Tebow’s rating of 126. Could the other players on the field have had anything to do with these QB’s ratings?)
Michael Vick threw 18 TDs versus 24 turnovers this season while his extremely talented team went 7-6 in the 13 games he started. Is Vick still considered an elite QB?" If so, where did it get the Eagles?
John Madden recently announced his winners of the top five O lines in the league this past season. His five finalists? The Saints, Packers, Broncos, Texans and Patriots.
“The main ingredient of stardom is the rest of the team.”
~ John Wooden
IMHO, until the Redskins organization figures this out, the TEAM, their fans and the press will be stuck at the bottom of the league, forever searching for their lone savior.
Belly Kilmer - February 6, 2012
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